Janeg, do you help me please to find where Zoller writes expressis verbis, that:
Quote:
realization refers to whether or not the good or bad promised by a house will manifest in the life ?

I can find this quotation in the first house context only .

What is the zodiacal state of the ruler of the house? Is it angular (strong) or succedent (still strong but only half as much), or cadent (weak)? If its zodiacal state is good and it is strong, the affairs of the house you are judging will be realized.

Each house "depends for its realization on the sign or the planet that occupies that space or House, on the planet that rules that House, and on the planets that are connected with the House ruler or that aspect that House"

Jogi wrote: Sorry Johannes, but you misunderstood Zoller totally!! What Janeg said in the last post is absolutely correct!

Thus, the term ?outcome? may be best understood as indicating what results from a given house?s promise. In the case of the 1st house, we can discuss this in terms of motivation, the native?s actions and desires. The ascendant ruler can be viewed as indicating the methods used to realize the promise of the house. In the case of the other houses, we put aside all such psychology and speak of results, outcomes and causes.

Summarized:
1. ?outcome? - results from a given house?s promise.
2. the 1st house - (motivation, actions and desires. ascendant ruler
indicating methods used to) - realize [= realization] the promise of the house.
3. the other houses - (we put aside all such psychology and speak of) - results, outcomes and causes.

janeg wrote: The reference is to any house you are judging and not just the 1st.

janeg wrote: Morin says something similar in Book 18, p94

janeg wrote: The quote is from Book 18, Chapter XIV The Intrinsic Strength and Quality of the Houses of the Horoscope. Also, the Strength accruing to the Planets through their placement in the Houses

It's in the 3rd point he makes after the paragraph starting Hence, in my opinion, the strengths proper of the Houses depend on the following points:

Causes relate to why the outcomes are as they are. He used the planet dispositing the planets in the house; and here, as in most cases, the cusp ruler, Saturn, is also the dispositor and its state and location indicated the cause of the contentions between his friends... And since the Sun and Mercury are also disposed by Saturn, the indication is that at different times in the native's life the same cause (Saturn in Leo) produces different 11th House experiences.

Jogi wrote:Hi Jane,

in your very good explanation of realization/outcome you wrote:

Causes relate to why the outcomes are as they are. He used the planet dispositing the planets in the house; and here, as in most cases, the cusp ruler, Saturn, is also the dispositor and its state and location indicated the cause of the contentions between his friends... And since the Sun and Mercury are also disposed by Saturn, the indication is that at different times in the native's life the same cause (Saturn in Leo) produces different 11th House experiences.

In this example Zoller uses his own chart with Capr. on the 11th and Aquar. on the 12 house cusp. In this case Saturn is house ruler and dispositor of all the planets in the 11th house.

Assuming you have an 11th house with the same planets in it but the cusp of the 11th is in Aquar. and Sun and Mercury are in Pieces. The ruler of the whole house is Saturn and with Mars in Aquar. Saturn is also Mars`dispositor.
Saturn shows the causes of the 11th because he is house ruler and dispositor of Mars. But what about the Sun and Mercury in Pieces?
To delineate the causes for Sun and Mercury, would you:
- give preference to their dispositor Jupiter?
- would you nonetheless take Saturn as house ruler allthough their dispositor is Jupiter?
- would you take both, Jupiter and Saturn to delineate the causes?

Best wishes
J?rgen

Hi Jurgen... I think you have to take them all into consideration but would lean towards Saturn in domicile in the 11th as the ultimate significator of the 11th; the other planets in the house would also show events connected with the house affairs and Jupiter, as their dispositor, would indicate their causes.

janeg wrote:Hi ... for the last few days I've been puzzling over how best to respond to the question of the difference between outcomes, realizations and causes. Zoller discusses them in DMA Lesson 6 but, as is easily seen from Jogi's direct quote, the language of the text isn't exactly clear and succinct. As a result, I went back to Zoller's Foundation Course where he was a little more straightforward in describing how to read a house.

To begin with, he describes a general approach to reading a house.

In good Medieval Aristotelian style we want answers to the questions" Whether it is, What it is, How it is and Why it is?

Let us say that we are interested in the 11th house. The General Approach guides us to see:
a) if the affairs of the house will be realised or not (i.e. whether the native will have friends?) [Whether it is]
b) What kind of friends the native will have
c) How the affairs associated with the house will manifest (e.g. what is the quality of the interaction between the native and his friends), and
d) Why this is so

I would equate realization to Whether it is? In the context of the 11th House: Will the house realize or produce friends? Will he or won't he have friends?

I think (b) and (c) What kind of friends? and How the affairs with friends will manifest relate to outcomes: What the native will actually experience in his life in relation to friends.

And (d) Why this is so with causes. Why do his experiences with friends happen the way the do?

Unfortunately, he doesn't delineate the house following the order a,b,c and d as listed above so the following is my re-arrangement of what he said to match the above.

a. Whether it is

We can also use the ruler(s) to discover "Whether" the native has an 11th House (or any other house). While it is rare, it is possible to have a house "switched off" so that the native is denied that area of life.

The happens when all the rulers {by dignity} of a house are afflicted. Afflictions are of ten kinds according to Bonatti in 146 Considerations translated from the Latin by Coley and published by Lilly in 1675. Of these ten, four are most common: Planets are afflicted when retrograde, combust, cadent and conjunct, square or opposed a malefic Planet. If most of a house's rulers are afflicted and the few which are minor rulers (decan, term), there is still danger that the house affairs may not be operative or will operate with difficulty. A healthy, operative house has 1. All rulers angular, succedent and unafflicted. 2. The ruler(s) of the house in the house. 3. The ruler(s) of the house in favourable aspect to the benefics.

He looks at all the rulers of the 11th, the cusp is at 16 Capricorn: sign, exaltation, triplicity, term and decan. Saturn rules the Capricorn cusp, Mars is the exaltation ruler, Capricorn's triplicity rulers are Venus, Moon and Mars, Venus is the term ruler and Mars is the decan ruler.

So the 11th house rulers are: Saturn, Mars, Veus, Moon.
Saturn and Mars are afflicted by their mutual opposition and Mars is also combust Venus is in the 9th conjunct (5 deg) the MC therfore Angular, unafflicted. Moon is also Angular and unafflicted. So, because 2 of the 11th House cusp rulers are strong (angular) and unafflicted he concludes the native will have friends. The promise of the 11th, friends, will be realized.

b. What kind of friends will he have?

These are primarily described by the planets in the 11th: Mercury (learned), Sun (powerful), Mars (fighters).

He also ties in the house each planet rules. For example, Mars rules the 9th so he says the native's contentious (Mars) friends "have some sort of religious, educational or foreign connection i.e. they will be religious zealots or haters of religion, educators with zealous philosophical opinions, or aggressive or courageous persons of foreign birth possibly met during foreign journeys."

c. How he will interact with his friends?

"The native's social life will at best be loud (Martians like to make noise, slap each other on the back), magnanimous (Sun) and learned (Mercury)"

Saturn, the cusp ruler, in the 5th links the 5th with friends How will the native enjoy himself?. Answer: with friends. Note that here, the position of Saturn in the 5th takes precedence; he 'enjoys' (location, 5th house) himself with friends (11th, ruled).

d. Why this is so

"The good or the bad signified by an {sic} house emanates from the ruler of the house." This does two very important things. It allows us to see connections and it answers the question "Why it is?"

In his delineation he says Mars dominates the 11th (it's the almuten); it is a combust malefic in opposition to its dispositor and cusp ruler, Saturn, the other malefic. He therefore 'spoils' the good of the house by introducing unresolved conflicts.

Saturn, the ruler of the cusp and Mars dispositor, shows us the why, the cause of the conflict. Saturn is in Leo, in detriment, "debilitated and nasty, a troublemaker who overstates his worth because of a profound sense of mediocrity. He aspires to be great but can't get there." and as Saturn is in the 7th from the 11th,

"...shows that the frustrated egotism and power drive referred to above is operating in the context of the friends partnerships or dealings with others. In other words the cause {Zoller's emphasis} of the hostility marring the native's social life is due to the native's friends wanting to dominate others or running into disputes in connection with partnerships....
... And since the Sun and Mercury are also disposed by Saturn, the indication is that at different times in the native's life the same cause (Saturn in Leo) produces different 11th House experiences.

So from the above, realization refers to whether or not the significations of the house will occur in the life: will he have friends, money, a spouse, a career, etc. And the realization is shown by the strength of the sign rulers. Here, 2 rulers, Venus and the Moon were strong and unafflicted therefore the native would have friends. He also says its rare that a house is totally switched off so perhaps realization is a moot point.

Outcomes relate to the how and what. The manner in which the affairs of the house are realized: easily, with difficulty, by what means, etc. Mars, Mercury and the Sun showed what type of friends he had and how they interacted. Mars, in bad state, in the 11th, was working against the promise of the 11th; to impede 'the good' promised. And Saturn, the cusp ruler, was also working against the good of the house by being in bad state and in opposition to the 11th.

Causes relate to why the outcomes are as they are. He used the planet dispositing the planets in the house; and here, as in most cases, the cusp ruler, Saturn, is also the dispositor and its state and location indicated the cause of the contentions between his friends.

At least, that is how I understand what he's said.

He says much the same in DMA Lesson 6 although with more details.

In judging a house, it is very important to keep in mind that position is stronger than rulership. While we have just been discussing rulership in the figure and there is more yet to be said about rulership in connection with houses, the position of planets in the house is {sic} far more impact than the strength of the ruler. The ruler will show something of the outcome, what will eventually eventuate, but the planets in the house are given preference because they will work for or against the realisation of the houses.

At first glance this seems to be the reverse of what he says in the Foundation Course but a closer read says the ruler will 'show something' .. i.e. it doesn't say everything about outcomes; planets in the house are 'given preference'. Which is essentially what he said in the Foundation Course, planets in the house give a stronger objective description of the house affairs than the cusp ruler. However, if there are no planets in the house, then we need to look to the cusp ruler for realization, outcomes and causes.

Hope that helps somewhat; again, it's my own read on what he's saying and I could be interpreting him incorrectly.

Mjacob wrote:It is perhaps not such a good idea to use a controversial subject like Adolf Hitler as an example chart for an astrological principle. The debate has I believe seen more heat than light. From memory Libra rising rising is correct but some argue against the infamous Nazi being a charming Libra so come up with other times to suit their political credentials. The debate was long and tiresome and not worth dragging over the coals I reckon zzz