Oh and Mark - thanks for the pointer to Volguine, I'm now sifting through references to him in French to see if I can find anything about that 5th Republic chart used by Campion.
Graham

Concerning the 5th Republic chart, one of the most detailed considerations online seems to be in French by Charles Ridoux:
http://ridoux.fr/spip/spip.php?article44

He favours the closing of voting in the referendum on 28/9/1958, arguing that just as birth is more important than registering with the authorities, so the people's decision should take precedence over the official vote or stamp. Not sure about this logic, but that chart does seem to have been quite widely used by French astrologers in the past.

He mentions the alternative 15:30 chart on 21/9/58, the proclamation at the Assembly, as one of the options proposed by Campion, in a footnote, but doesn't develop. This is the one used by Marjorie Orr re the recent attacks.

The constitution which had been voted on was promulgated by the President Ren? Coty on 4/9/58, so 5/10/58 was the first full official day of the new republic, and the day it was publishes in the Journal Officiel, so some astrologers use sunrise on 5/10/58.

Ridoux gives Armand Barbault and Robert Sauv? as the sources for the 6/10/58 chart, for the fixing of the seal (either 18:21 or 18:43, respectively). They may have taken it from Volguine, though Ridoux doesn't mention this. And then I realised I had a book by Barbault (Astrologie mondiale, 1979), where he gives the 6/10 seal-fixing chart as THE chart for the 5th Republic, with no mention of the others. But he seems to favour 18:00, the beginning of the official ceremony, as opposed to "around 18:30" when the seal was probably actually fixed. He asks "Why should we make a fetish out of the precise moment of signature, when the opening of the ceremony at 18:00 can count just as much?"

So at least I have my answer - there was an official ceremony starting at 6pm on 6/10, which would explain why it's "out of office hours", and Campion's 6:30 chart is thus probably a valid option.

Ridoux points out the difference between a valid chart (historically attested, of which there are many) and an effective chart, astrologically (some of the valid ones will "work" better than others). The 6:30 chart on 6/10/58 seems to be valid, and also seems to be very effective retrospectively with respect to the execution of Louis (same Asc, same MC).

Graham

I found an interesting proposal in one of my books. Had?s (Alain Yaouanc), a french astrologer, had suggested for the chart of France (and avalaible for all Republics) the day of the proclamation of the French Republic.
This day was on September 22, 1792.
Why this day in particular? I think it is because this day correspond to the Ingres of the Sun in Libra.
Therefore as a hour he chose 9h18 AM, which is the precise moment when the Sun is at 0?0?00?? in Libra. As a location of course he chose Paris.

In my opinion it is an interesting choice, both historically, symbolically and astrologically, but I have no experience with this chart, so I just mention this possible choice on this thread.
I hope this can help.

Graham wrote:

hat's right - and 9:18 LAT was also when the Sun was exactly on the autumn equinox point, deemed to start the new year of the new epoch. (Astronomers and mathematicians were associated with the design of the new calendar.)
From Wikipedia "French Republican Calendar":

Actually I had been being lazy and just quoted your chart data. I wasn't agreeing with your chart. I simply assumed we were discussing the same chart I saw Marjorie Orr referring to. I changed all my reference to 21/09/1792 on the forum accordingly. Or at least I thought I had!

I am well aware of the argument you are making for the Republican calendar . I actually provided the Wikipedia link you used!

You quote a section from Wikipedia:

This usage was modified on 22 September 1792 when the Republic was proclaimed and the Convention decided that all public documents would be dated Year I of the French Republic. The decree of 2 January 1793 stipulated that the year II of the Republic began on 1 January 1793; this was revoked with the introduction of the new calendar, which set 22 September 1793 as the beginning of year II. The establishment of the Republic was used as the epochal date for the calendar; therefore, the calendar commemorates the Republic, not the Revolution.

Its true the French officially decided the Republican calendar started on the 22nd of September. But this was a retrospective decision. I also accept the National Assembly started business for the first time as a republican body on 22/09/2015. That is no doubt why the calendar was started then. But the Parliament passed the abolition of the monarchy proclamation or decree on 21/09/1792.

So its perfectly valid to argue the Republic started at close of business on 21/09/1792 as Nicholas Campion suggests. His references show he checked the political documents of the Parliament to confirm this.

I also gave another Wikipedia link above showing the Proclamation is dated from 21/09/2015. Here it is again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proclamat ... e_monarchy

There is actually a plaque in Paris celebrating the Proclamation of the abolition of the monarchy, in high-relief bronze by L?opold Morice, Monument of the Republic, Place de la R?publique, Paris, 1883
As you can see the bronze relief above dates the Republic from 21/09/1792.

I offer this just as information so people do get a balanced view of the historical evidence. But I cant say I have a depth of experience working with any chart for France. So I am not staking my life on any of these charts.

What chart people work with is up to the judgement of the individual astrologer. I have never held to the view that only one moment in time can represent a nation astrologically.

The chart I am personally most impressed by in picking up recent events isn't for the 1st or 5th Republic. More on that later.

Mark

Midheaven wrote

I found an interesting proposal in one of my books. Had?s (Alain Yaouanc), a french astrologer, had suggested for the chart of France (and avalaible for all Republics) the day of the proclamation of the French Republic.
This day was on September 22, 1792.
Why this day in particular? I think it is because this day correspond to the Ingres of the Sun in Libra.
Therefore as a hour he chose 9h18 AM, which is the precise moment when the Sun is at 0?0?00?? in Libra.

Yes, that's the chart I used for what I posted at the beginning of this thread

For France, I have taken the foundation of the 1st Republic (generally given as 9:18 on 22/9/1792, when the new "Year 1" was announced - officially defined a year later as the epochal date "Year 1", starting with the Autumn equinox, with a new decimal calendar and with new names of months). So I think this is a pretty good starting point for the modern French Republic.

Thanks for the reference to Had?s, as I now realise that the 9:18 time may well have originated with him, and was probably deliberately fixed to coincide with the equinox rather than corresponding to any assembly gathering. Which doesn't invalidate it: it's fairly clear (see Mark's and my Wiki quotes above) that the new Republic was "designed" and "supposed" to start on that equinox.

Mark - I absolutely agree of course that the proclamation was on the 21st, and so that chart, one of the ones proposed by Campion, is a perfectly valid choice, perhaps a better one. The inscriptions in Paris would support it as a good symbolic choice.

I notice that some are using a 3rd Republic chart, as the one which has seen an uninterrupted Republic (without return of monarchy), as defining modern France.

Graham

Yes, that's the chart I used for what I posted at the beginning of this thread

Oh I am sorry, with all the developments in this thread I forgot the beginning !

Thanks for the reference to Had?s, as I now realise that the 9:18 time may well have originated with him, and was probably deliberately fixed to coincide with the equinox rather than corresponding to any assembly gathering.

Yes it's also what I understand. The traditional approach is clearly symbolic in my opinion.

Midheaven wrote

I found an interesting proposal in one of my books. Had?s (Alain Yaouanc), a french astrologer, had suggested for the chart of France (and avalaible for all Republics) the day of the proclamation of the French Republic.
This day was on September 22, 1792.
Why this day in particular? I think it is because this day correspond to the Ingres of the Sun in Libra.
Therefore as a hour he chose 9h18 AM, which is the precise moment when the Sun is at 0?0?00?? in Libra. As a location of course he chose Paris.

In my opinion it is an interesting choice, both historically, symbolically and astrologically, but I have no experience with this chart, so I just mention this possible choice on this thread.
I hope this can help.

Thanks for this. I missed your reference earlier. I (and I guess others too) had wrongly assumed the time 09.18 AM was fixed to when the National Assembly convened on 22/09/1792.

Using the tropical zodiac it is interesting that at the time of the Paris attacks, Mars (Lord 1) had just ingressed Libra (12th Whole sign house) conjuncting the Sun on the First Republic chart for 22nd September 1792.

Mark

Hi Mark

I did actually point out that configuration with Mars on Sun in my first post of this thread. Mars is also significantly placed within the attack chart itself:

- Mars and NN on the IC with Mars (having just crossed into tropical Libra) applying (5?) to Venus;
- Mars conj <1? 1st Republic Sun (Mars having just crossed over NN and into Libra)

Graham

Graham wrote:

I did actually point out that configuration with Mars on Sun in my first post of this thread. Mars is also significantly placed within the attack chart itself:
Quote:
- Mars and NN on the IC with Mars (having just crossed into tropical Libra) applying (5?) to Venus;
- Mars conj <1? 1st Republic Sun (Mars having just crossed over NN and into Libra)

Graham

Hi Graham,

Yes I saw that. Following November 13th there has understandably been lots of analysis of the chart for the start of the attacks. But I am more interested in how transits relate to a radix chart and I was just making a passing comment on your chosen chart. Using a tropical zodiac and emphasizing whole sign houses my focus will inevitably be different from yours. In particular, Mars hadn't just entered the WSH 12th sidereally and Mars was not the ASC ruler or Lord 6 (a house of enemies in Indian and hellenistic astrology) from a sidereal perspective. But regardless of this Mars had just crossed the nodes in any view and that nodal focus is even more pronounced in the pre-lunation chart.

Mark

Mark
I was working in tropical, and whole sign houses, and the links to charts I posted were in tropical / WS. I mentioned that Mars in the attacks chart had just crossed into tropical Libra. I just avoided talking about rulerships.

I don't really see why the Scorpio Asc for the 1st Republic chart I used is particularly appropriate, though, though that's what it is, as you point out. France hasn't been any more Scorpionic over the years than most countries. Scorpio rising would surely have been more appropriate for the attacks, or the pre eclipses or lunation, or for the attackers.

Graham

i apologize in advance if i am saying something that has already been repeated..

the aries ingress chart 2015 for paris as 21 scorpio rising.. as the theory goes - this ingress chart becuase it has a fixed sign rising, is in effect for the full year.. now, as others have pointed out the transit of mars in opposition to the aries point, or where the sun was at the aries ingress is one of a few connections we can make back to the aries ingress chart. the other obvious one is the location of the transiting sun for the time of the terrorist act with the degree of the ascendant in the aries ingress chart.

the lunar eclipse of sept 28th also seems relevant given the mars/saturn square on the angles for paris.. mars, the ruler of the 8th in the le chart is on the ascendant in this chart. mars in the terrorist attack chart is 5 minutes off the mean nodal axis.. personally i like using the mean nodal axis myself..

finally - the total solar eclipse for march 20 2015 which took place at 29 pisces 27 is very close to the midheaven in the terrorist attack chart - 29 pisces 03. saturn in both charts is within about a 1/2 degree of each other..

i wouldn't have predicted any of this.. only in hindsight can i say that the sept 28th eclipse chart doesn't look favourable, but i don't know that i would have made any prediction solely on the basis of that chart.. the coincidences between the other chart remain mostly that - coincidences.. perhaps the 2015 aries ingress chart for paris with mercury the most angular planet and ruler of the 8th house was a bad omen, but again - i doubt i would have made a prediction based on these 2 factors that seem the most outstanding in it all..

one additional comment.. still reading the ibn ezra books.. he was using some of the hellenistic ideas.. here is one that applies to the aries ingress chart.. it has to do with the phase of the moon - first half, or 2nd half - waxing or waning - in the aries ingress chart, aside from the moon being under the suns rays, the waxing moon applies to mars which is also a negative... the moon applies to a retro jupiter before it makes it to the dignified mars, but it's another consideration for the paris 2015 aries ingress chart.

Graham wrote:

Mark
I was working in tropical, and whole sign houses, and the links to charts I posted were in tropical / WS. I mentioned that Mars in the attacks chart had just crossed into tropical Libra. I just avoided talking about rulerships.

Ok. I apologise for not studying your initial post more carefully. I had assumed your analysis would be sidereal. Although as I said already it was only a passing comment Graham.

I don't really see why the Scorpio Asc for the 1st Republic chart I used is particularly appropriate, though, though that's what it is, as you point out. France hasn't been any more Scorpionic over the years than most countries.

Heh its your chosen chart Graham not mine! lol. I was just playing with it. Of course in the sidereal zodiac its Libra rising and Moon in Scorpio.

I think it certainly picks up the bloody turmoil of the First Republic era and the Terror. But ultimately its a chart for French republican government not French national consciousness. I would have looked at the chart for the Storming of the Bastille for that. That appears to be either a Scorpio rising (1.30pm) for the initial storm of the Bastille or Sagittarius rising (5.30pm) for the final surrender of the Prison to the popular uprising.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/His ... e_Storming

I personally prefer a 5.30pm chart for the final fall of the Bastille to revolutionary forces.

From Wikipedia:

Around 1:30, the crowd surged into the undefended outer courtyard, and the chains on the drawbridge to the inner courtyard were cut, crushing one unfortunate vainqueur. About this time, gunfire began, though some stories state that the Governor had a cannon fire into the crowd killing several women, children, and men, turning the crowd into a mob. The crowd seemed to have felt it had been drawn into a trap and the fighting became more violent and intense, while attempts by deputies to organise a cease-fire were ignored by the attackers.

The firing continued, and at 3:00, the attackers were reinforced by mutinous gardes fran?aises and other deserters from among the regular troops, along with two cannons. A substantial force of Royal Army troops encamped on the nearby Champs de Mars did not intervene. With the possibility of a mutual massacre suddenly apparent, Governor de Launay ordered a cease-fire at 5:00. A letter offering his terms was handed out to the besiegers through a gap in the inner gate. His demands were refused, but de Launay nonetheless capitulated, as he realised that his troops could not hold out much longer; he opened the gates to the inner courtyard, and the vainqueurs swept in to liberate the fortress at 5:30.

In any government or constitutional chart I would see the people mostly reflected in the Moon which in the 1792 charts is in freedom loving Sagittarius.

Mark