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accidental dignities(2)

1 by fensi88
In case when we have sport question as for this one:"will my team
win another" and we want to check out which ruler have more accidental dignities and debilities, here is my question:
As we know in this case we look for ruler of 1st house, for my team,
and if we find its ruler in 4 house from Lilly's table it gets +4 points.
Then look for DSC ruler and find him in 2nd radical house. I am not sure does I have to look this position, as ruler is in 2nd house, or as ruler which is in turned 8 house from DSC. It is a big difference regarding the points.
Ready to here your opinion.
Greetings,
Goca
http://www.geocities.com/astrosport88/engleski.html

3 by Deb
Sorry Tom, I disagree. I seem to be having a ?disagreeable day? with you today so let me temper that by saying how much I enjoyed your reply to Duncan on the L.O.G. thread. I thought that was very well expressed.

Anyway the reason I disagree is because the dignity table aims to identify the level of influence that each planet is naturally capable of. The houses don?t just signify the areas of life within which a planet expresses its effect; they also denote areas wherein a planet?s capacity to display its influence is augmented or reduced. They have their own natural virtues so that a planet in the 10th house or 1st house (because it is culminating or rising in the sphere) has a much stronger influence than one in the 8th or 6th.

To simplify the principle let?s assume that we are gathering the dignity information for Mars in the 10th house even though this is being used as the 8th house for a brother. Is Mars dignified and granted 5 points of dignity by being in that position, or considered debilitated and denied 2 points of dignity by being in the turned 8th? As Manilius says, the nature of the position prevails. Mars is still an angular and culminating planet - it doesn?t become a succeedent planet because of how we relate it to whatever turned significations we might use.

On pages 176-180 Lilly demonstrates in detail his assessment of the dignity points. He always goes by the radical position and so do all the other astrologers that I have seen demonstrate their dignity scoring. In his example Lilly gives Mars 5 points of dignity for being in the 1st house. He uses Mars as the significator for the querent?s wealth and to represent his potential wife because it rules the 2nd and the 7th houses. However, the judgement he makes on these matters take into consideration that Mars has already been defined as powerful in accidental dignity and he doesn?t reconsider that in reference to it falling in the 7th house of the partner or the 12th house of the income.

5 by Tom
Hi Deb,

My reference was to a sports question. There are two teams. They cannot both have the same houses for resources, or their trophy (10th for the ASC 4th for the 7th), etc. Yes houses affect the ability of a planet to act, no question about that, and angular, succedent and cadent houses are the same whether we start from the first or the 7th. But if both significators are hovering near the radical 10th, we cannot predict that both teams will win. The 10th is the 4th of the 7th, much different from significations given to the 10th house, and having the significators in this position would be testimony that the ASC will win, although it is true that both planets in the radical 10th are near an angle and therefore strengthened.

For example suppose Jupiter is lord 7 and therefore rules the underdog in a sports contest. Jupiter is posited in the radical 2nd. He becomes a resource for the favorite (the underdog plays badly) and is in the house of death (8th of the 7th) of the underdog (underdog will lose).

Secondly, while determining strength is important, the strongest team doesn't always win. We have to consider much more. In general there is nothing to disagree with in your post, but I think for sports questions we need to shift perspective a bit.


Tom

6 by fensi88
Tom,
Secondly, while determining strength is important, the strongest team doesn't always win. We have to consider much more.
This is true, I have a lot of chart in which if we consider only accidental dignities that does not nessery means that that team will win. I must to try both method and see which give better results.

Do you perhaps know, from your practice, which of this methods (to turn house, or not) give better results?
Greetings,
Goca
http://www.geocities.com/astrosport88/engleski.html

7 by Tom
I've never done any kind of comparison. I only try to predict the Super Bowl and one or two other sports events. I have a so-so record, but that is usually due to mistakes on my part. I have an online friend who has a really sharp eye and doesn't miss the little nuances that can make the difference in prediction. She usually beats me when we disagree, but I did beat her once. Her overall record is better than mine. She would turn the chart.

I've given up on baseball palyoffs or other playoffs that require a series of games to crown a champion. The system I use doesn't lend itself to that very well or I don't do it very well.

Berndette Brady used Lilly's rules for Castle Beseigement. I don't understand the connection between beseigement and a straight up contest, but her results speak for themselves. She did very, very well.

Caution: I do these things for fun. Never for money. Money changes everything.

Tom

8 by Sue
Actually, it is Bonatti's rules. But these rules are only used in a game where one team holds the trophy and the other is attempting to gain it from them. The rules are not used for a general game. If it is the Superbowl, for example, and one of the teams currently holds the trophy then these rules could be applied. The whole idea is an attempt to take something from the current holders, which is where the castle besiegement comes in. It relates to an attempt to take the castle from its current occupiers. Bonatti used these rules in times of war. Bernadette and Lee Lehman used the example of the Ashes trophy of cricket. The Americans on this list will not really understand this due to the fact that it is a cricket competition between England and Australia. At this point, the English list members will probably want to remind this Australian that they currently hold the Ashes but this Australian will remind the English list members that this is such a rare and temporary situation that it is insignificant. :lol: I quite like the concept of using these charts when they are applicable but I must say that I don't really do a lot of sports type charts. I joined a season long footy tipping competition last week just for the fun of it (and the $500 prize money) and got great results - 5 wins out of 7- by tossing a coin. :)

11 by Sue
:lol: Footy is Oz speak for football. No one ever says football, always footy. My footy tipping competition is in Rugby League and consists of picking the winners of the seven or so games that are played over the course of each weekend. This weekend I might even try drawing up charts if I get a chance. This used to be difficult because the games would all start at 3pm on a Saturday afternoon. These days, they play anywhere between Friday night and Sunday afternoon and some games are even played in New Zealand so the charts can vary somewhat. However, tossing a coin takes a lot less time and effort.

I don't think this sort of competition lends itself to the castle besiegement charts though. I would use 1st/7th houses. But I am not convinced yet as to who to give the 1st house to. It could be the home team, the favourites or the team that kicks off. I lean more towards the team that kicks off for the reason that they are the initiators of the event. Favourites is too subjective for my liking. Another reason I like the team that kicks off is that you don't know who that is until the game starts. Therefore, you can be far more objective when deliniating the chart. You can come to a decision about the winner without any preconceived notions.
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