49 by james_m Mark wrote: I am unclear how Peter Stockinger determined the Moon as LOY in the EU Aries ingress. Saturn is both domicile ruler of the ASC and the most angular planet. Any ideas? Mark hi mark - thanks for posting these charts.. i was also unclear how he arrived at that! one could say it is the most important light given sect considerations and it is angular, but it seemed to me to be stretching it making it the loy... maybe i am missing some star lore thrown in here? it is too far away from regulus to count i think! Quote Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:09 pm
50 by Mjacob Mjacob wrote: For the rest of Europe we could use the house for the people. For the EU establishment the 10th and perhaps for Britain the 4th as the opposers to the 10th ? If so for the Brussels ingress Saturn is still LOY following Goran's previous so we now interpret for EU rather than UK. Saturn squares Jupiter L10 as does Mars and I do not think the opposition of Venus ( and Neptune) really does much to break the enclosure so not good for EU Matthew If we stick with Jupiter as signifying the rulers of the EU he is retrograde and Mars is still direct while Saturn is about to station. Jupiter is in terms of Venus as is Venus herself and both are besieged by the malefics so it is still worse for the EU. Mars in Sagittarius could be threats from the west and Antares close to MC indicates caution abandoned. Again this means UK taking action rather than cautiously remaining If Mercury is L4 representing the UK as opposer then he is in a poor state combust but guesstimating that Mercury moves by PD to oppose Jupiter around time of opposition so I still tend toward the EU losing the UK Matthew Goulding Quote Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:08 pm
51 by Mark Mjacob wrote: Mars in Sagittarius could be threats from the west and Antares close to MC indicates caution abandoned. Again this means UK taking action rather than cautiously remaining If Mercury is L4 representing the UK as opposer then he is in a poor state combust but guesstimating that Mercury moves by PD to oppose Jupiter around time of opposition so I still tend toward the EU losing the UK Thanks Matthew. Good to see you come out with your prediction. Its interesting. I dont think I have seen anyone traditionally orientated suggest they think a remain is likely! Peter Stockinger, Sharon Knight, myself and now you. In response to putting out my opening of poll analysis out on Facebook yesterday I got a very interesting reply from Steven Birchfield. I have his permission to post that on Skyscript. He also thinks a vote to leave is on the cards. The only astrologers predicting a remain I have seen are all modern ie Marjorie Orr, Barry Goddard, and Julian Venables. I dont want to make this divisive as I know some modern astrologers predict a likely Brexit too but it is an interesting divergence! Incidentally, using primary directions in an Aries ingress. Nifty work! Mark Last edited by Mark on Sat Jun 04, 2016 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total. As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Sat Jun 04, 2016 5:07 pm
52 by Mark Here is a link to a piece by the American traditional astrologer Nina Gryphon. She discusses the fact that Mars is retrograde at the time of the EU vote and its likely effect on the European Union. http://www.ninagryphon.com/astrology-of ... eferendum/ In particular she observes: Mars will be nearly stationary (though still moving very slowly) on the date of the Brexit referendum, June 23. The retrograde motion of Mars will give the vote an unexpected turn of events. Obviously, putting UK membership in the EU up to a popular vote is a gamble any time, but especially during a period of popular dissatisfaction with the EU. Remember: under a planet retrograde, events go contrary to nature and plan. William Lilly says that a planet retrograde ?shows a great change in the air and?sudden alteration.? (Christian Astrology p. 107) Expect anomalies as a result of the referendum; perhaps the UK will actually vote to leave the EU, upsetting Cameron?s big bet. Even if they stay, this spring will mark an important turning point in the EU climate, as it will embolden the so-called Euroskeptics in all countries. Whether we argue Mars or Saturn is LOY in the Aries ingress the fact they are both retrograde at the time of this momentous referendum surely reinforces the above interpretation? Mark As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Sat Jun 04, 2016 5:31 pm
53 by Mjacob Hi Mark I did not expect to come up with anything different from Sharon Knight nor Pete Stockinger just doing the same outcome for the EU. The rules are consistent over the centuries for mundane As to your previous I think that Mr Stockinger was using the strict rules on proximity to the angles to deny Saturn LoY. A planet needs to be 3 degrees ahead of the angle or 4 after to count. For the UK Mars was <3>4 for EU Matthew Last edited by Mjacob on Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total. Matthew Goulding Quote Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:34 pm
54 by james_m matthew and mark, thanks for these additional comments and links and thanks for your updated post on page 1 mark.. i went back and looked at it - good summary of astro factors at work showing how nothing is so simple here! matthew - thanks... technically jupiter isn't besieged as i understand the use of the concept.. maybe it is a mute point as it becomes besieged a few days after the spring ingress.. i still don't see how stockinger can get moon as loy given what you have said... are you saying strict rules - to which i am curious who articulated them - say unless a planet is within 3/4 of an angle, the chart is ruled by the sect light? sounds like it! and, i am especially curious how you are directing .. can't be primary directions, as they don't move that fast!!! perhaps another technique you have in mind? thanks.. mark - thanks for the link to ninas article from february.. the top comments to the article itself are especially interesting! they appear to be working with and emphasizing different charts - always a challenge for the mundane astrologer.. Quote Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:02 pm
55 by Mark As I stated earlier in this thread after posting my opening of poll analysis up on Facebook I was delighted to get feedback from Steven Birchfield. For those of you that are not aware of him Steven Birchfield is one of the most respected traditional astrologers in the world today. Steven has made an intensive study of both hellenistic and Perso-Arabic astrology. I have Steven's permission to reproduce his comments here on Skyscript: Steven Birchfield wrote: For what it's worth Mark I agree... some different astrological reasoning but result is the same. Change seems to be a very strong theme in the charts I have been looking at. Probably one of the strongest significations in my opinion of a political "rebellion" is indicated in the Mars/Saturn conjunction and of course major upheavals always follow the Jupiter/Saturn aspects. This year they are in the last square before the new conjunction and the square falls in the angles of the 10/7 by division. It is a very strong signification. But what is most significant for change is the Mars/Saturn conjunction at 9 Sag co present with the Midheaven of the chart. And this is the first half of Sagittarius and the "human" half of the sign indicating the signification is to people. The pre-ingress lunation at the first quarter (20.june) is also very significant as the lunation is in the last degree of Sagittatius (midheaven of the Ingress) and says "change" . The ruler of the lunation is Jupiter in its detriment in the ascendant of the lunation chart and the ruler of the ascendant is Mercury in its domicile in the midheaven but partile the opposition and harm of Saturn and in just 3 days will start its direct motion under the sun beams. When the ruler of the 10th entered combustion in ingress charts it usually meant the destruction of the king or his fall. So for me the whole chart screams change rather than stability and continuance as things are. Those are just a couple of my observations. Just to add a little reference to my examination of the Mars/Saturn conjunction Abu Ma'shar writes about it in Sagittarius (a royal sign) ..... (at the aries ingress ) "If Mars is pushing its power to it (Saturn), this indicates the fighting of the subjects against the kings, and it is stronger for this when it is in the midheaven." When you take this as an extra testimony to the Saturn/Jupiter square at the Ingress where Saturn is in the 10th and Jupiter in its detriment in the 10th from the 10th (Kings of the kings or in this case the EU rulers ruling decisions of the UK government) Then this testimony has a very strong significance towards breaking of the influence of these "kings". ergo the people fight by voting against these kings and rulers. And as you pointed out Saturn being LOY is an older generation of people who have strength in the 10th. Last edited by Mark on Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total. As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:15 am
56 by Mark Another blog, another EU referendum prediction! This time a blog called Capricorn Astrology Research by an anonymous British astrologer. https://astrologyresearch.co.uk/in-out- ... of-brexit/ S/he looks at various charts including the opening of poll, UK entry into EU (1973), 1066 chart and chart for David Cameron. Analysis is heavily based on transits. This astrologer concludes a remain vote is more likely but hedges their bet somewhat with a 70% vs 30% likelyhood. This more or less reflects the betting odds at the time the piece was written. Mark As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:30 pm
57 by Mjacob [quote="james_m"]matthew and mark, thanks for these additional comments and links and thanks for your updated post on page 1 mark.. i went back and looked at it - good summary of astro factors at work showing how nothing is so simple here! i still don't see how stockinger can get moon as loy given what you have said... are you saying strict rules - to which i am curious who articulated them - say unless a planet is within 3/4 of an angle, the chart is ruled by the sect light? sounds like it! and, i am especially curious how you are directing .. can't be primary directions, as they don't move that fast!!! perhaps another technique you have in mind? thanks.. [\quote] Q1 Bonatti 8.1 and second opinions welcome Q2 As per text - I am currently on holiday so cannot check the accuracy of this Matthew Matthew Goulding Quote Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:48 pm
58 by james_m hi mark, thanks for the last modern astro article on brexit.. it was entertaining to read! i thought the mid life crisis idea off the 1973 uk joins euro chart was fun... uranus opp uranus and saturn opp saturn... she didn't talk about the venus/saturn opposition in the 1973 chart - no fun!! i notice a solar return for the 1973 has venus/saturn in a conjunction up in the 10th sign area of the chart too.. is that more of the same glum - must fall in line thinking that seems to rule so much of these actions? i can't figure out what is with these astrologers giving the pluto square sun as some sort of green light for camerons win... that blows my mind.. i certainly don't see it that way... her charts leave out the nodal axis... for me, camerons win had a lot to do with north node transiting his venus/ascendant in spite of the pluto!!! funny how we arrive at conclusions so very differently.. and, for all we know the transit of jupiter to camerons chart in november has more to do with him doing something that brings happiness in the fall then it does here.. i just don't agree with her analysis, but it was fun to read! matthew... thanks! when you are back from holidays, i would like you to break down the pd quote from earlier.. i don't see it.. i will review bonatis book 8 to find the strict definition of loy as you have presented.. thanks! Quote Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:29 pm
59 by Mjacob Hi James I did bring Bonatti on holiday with me in a figurative way but the mathematics will have to wait a week unless there is a new app for PD's for IPad Matthew Goulding Quote Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:58 pm
60 by james_m matthew, joao has a good astro program, but not sure if it is set up for ipads.. free! - http://apps.flatangle.com/Charts/ looks like it doesn't do PDs though! morinus software does the PDs but i don't know if it is useable on an ipad! https://sites.google.com/site/pymorinus/ enjoy the holiday! james Quote Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:54 pm