hi yuzuru,


do you have some sort of astrology to go with this, or is it just a case of ''it works for me'? thanks..

Oh, just by looking at the ingresses, but I am too lazy to post all of them here.

See angularity as stability (stay) and candency as going. The 7th also is important because is relationship with others (stay).

The lunation before Brexit must also concur with the predictions of the ingress, an they all seem to say stay.

You can compare the method with the plebiscit in Scotland

Hi Yuzuru,

Welcome stranger! Good to have your comments even if they are somewhat brief.

Yuzuru wrote:

The lunation before Brexit must also concur with the predictions of the ingress, and they all seem to say stay.

Well kudos to you if your right about that Yuzuru. So far you are the only traditional astrologer I have encountered that thinks a remain/status quo vote is the likely outcome.

Its spooky I was just looking at the pre-ingress lunation chart before I looked at your post!

Clearly, this chart can be read in other ways! For example I have already quoted some comments from Stephen Birchfield here. On the issue of the pre-lunation he states:

The pre-ingress lunation at the first quarter (20.june) is also very significant as the lunation is in the last degree of Sagittatius (midheaven of the Ingress) and says "change" . The ruler of the lunation is Jupiter in its detriment in the ascendant of the lunation chart and the ruler of the ascendant is Mercury in its domicile in the midheaven but partile the opposition and harm of Saturn and in just 3 days will start its direct motion under the sun beams.
When the ruler of the 10th entered combustion in ingress charts it usually meant the destruction of the king or his fall. So for me the whole chart screams change rather than stability and continuance as things are. Those are just a couple of my observations.

I note the Moon is about to change sign into its sign of detriment meaning it will be disposited by Saturn in the 4th house. Its next applying aspect across the sign boundary is an opposition to Venus (Lord 9). Mercury the ASC and MC ruler is in an opposition to Saturn Rx. Jupiter is both Lord 7 and 4. So it also represents the opponents of the government. Jupiter conj the ASC indicates popular support for government opposition (lord 4) + for alliances abroad (Lord 7). The British people are genuinely divided.
Mark

As Yuzuru was talking about ingress charts I thought I would also display the Cancer ingress. Many traditional authorities suggest that when you have a fixed sign rising on the ASC in the Aries ingress you only need to use this chart for the whole year.

However, I always think each ingress is worth examining. While the Aries ingress may be the dominant chart for this year in the UK chart I think the other ingresses can be revealing too. The Cancer ingress is interesting because it repeats the theme of the Aries ingress with Aquarius rising. In the Aries ingress Mars was on the MC but in the Cancer ingress Saturn is applying to the MC by Retrograde motion.

I assume all this fixity on the ASC/DESC is in part what Yuzuru was referring to.
Mark

I have been a member of Skyscript for some years but haven't very often posted due to chronic ill health. I hope it isn't too late to add something to the discussion. I have limited experience of mundane astrology although I have been studying astrology since 1979 but only studied traditional astrology in 2010. I am now something of a hybrid modern/traditional astrologer!

I have been studying the astrology of the referendum since the date was first announced. In particular I have been looking at David Cameron's and Boris Johnson's birth charts (given that a 6.00 am and a 2.00pm birth time respectively are not to be relied upon!).

I read Mark's posts about the Poll Opening Chart with interest and so I came to that already aware of the birth charts. I make these observations:-

1. The Sun at 2 Cancer 12 conjoins Johnson's North node which may be conjoining his MC.

2. Mercury at 16 Gemini 35 rises before the Sun within 3 degrees of Johnson's radical Mercury. A Mercury return.

3. Mars at 23 Scorpio 22 squares Cameron's radical Mars (At the General Election last year Mars did the same from Taurus)

3. As per Bonatti (146 Considerations) whatever chart I cast I always look at the separation and next application of the Moon.

4. The Moon separates from Mars and applies by quincunx to Venus (Lord 4 and 11) in the whole sign 1st and quadrant 12th. This Venus may be conjoining Johnson's MC but this quincunx cannot perfect but demonstrates disharmony. The Moon's next application is of course a sextile to Saturn at 11 Sagittarius 41. This may be conjoining Cameron's Part of Fortune.

I see the Moon as taking Mars to Saturn and Mars conjoins the fixed star Unukulhai described by Ebertin as "a Martian force combined with Saturn and often is really dangerous and destructive. There will be chronic diseases ....weakened state". I can vouch for this having this star on my Heliocentric earth. I have been very ill for over 30 years.


This is a brief outline and I have decided to focus on the Moon's application. I have driven myself crazy looking at Solar Returns, Profections, Tertiary Progressions, Symbolic Arc directions etc. and I decided I couldn't see the wood for the trees! You could make a case for either to win (which astrologers have already done of course).

I await the result eagerly for astrological reasons (leaving aside my personal preference) because I wish to learn from it. This is my view at present.:-

If the Moon can't perfect by quincunx then its next applcation by Ptolemaic aspect is the one. I think this may indicate (and I hesitate due to inexperience) Cameron wins the day because of his Part of Fortune and because Saturn for me somehow cannot indicate change. It stands for authority and the establishment to me.

However this victory cannot be the same as the General Election last year. Saturn is in the Whole sign 6th conjoining the fixed star Rastaban (31 min orb)which was apparently conjoining Pluto on 9/11. It is known as "the one who destroys".

The MC of the Opening Poll chart conjoins Difda or Deneb Kaitos (1 degree orb) which I have seen on the MC of plane crashes etc so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Also something else interesting is the Closing Poll Chart which has the MC on 19 Scorpio (known by the ancients as the "accursed" degree) and conjoining Mars which seemed to me influential in Cameron's win last year.

I could say a lot more but basically for me (rightly or wrongly) it's about the Moon but the result could well be turbulent either way.

My personal vote is for Brexit even though I see a strong possibility of Remain winning. I do not feel qualified to make a strong prediction but make these observations which may be of interest to others.

Because I have a particular interest in fixed stars it will be interesting to see what part (if any!) they play. Unukhulhai meets Rastaban ?! We'll see!!
Maybe they'll get along just fine !

I just wanted to say thanks Mark for all your hard work putting up these ingress charts and your thought out analysis. I don't know anything about Ingresses, but did read through your posts quickly and may come back and think about them more. One of these days I might even understand what they are.

Vicki wrote:

I have been a member of Skyscript for some years but haven't very often posted due to chronic ill health. I hope it isn't too late to add something to the discussion. I have limited experience of mundane astrology although I have been studying astrology since 1979 but only studied traditional astrology in 2010. I am now something of a hybrid modern/traditional astrologer!

Thanks for coming out of the limelight Vicki. I really wish more people would do the same and post their thoughts here on this forum. Of course a lot of people are just not interested in mundane astrology. But I think many astrologers see mundane as very technical. Still, we can all work natally so I urge people to 'have a go'!

Vicki wrote:

I have been studying the astrology of the referendum since the date was first announced. In particular I have been looking at David Cameron's and Boris Johnson's birth charts (given that a 6.00 am and a 2.00pm birth time respectively are not to be relied upon!).

I have found Cameron's chart fairly reliable when looking at elections. Less confident about Johnson as I haven't been working with his chart so long. However, I do know through another astrologer who has Conservative party links that the time has been verified by his family.

I read Mark's posts about the Poll Opening Chart with interest and so I came to that already aware of the birth charts. I make these observations:-

1. The Sun at 2 Cancer 12 conjoins Johnson's North node which may be conjoining his MC.

Yes its also on Cameron's MC!

Vicki wrote:

2. Mercury at 16 Gemini 35 rises before the Sun within 3 degrees of Johnson's radical Mercury. A Mercury return.

It all depends how you want to interpret that I suppose. I would see it as positive as its ruling his Gemini Sun but Liz Hathway interprets it negatively as Mercury rules his 12th house too.

Vicki wrote:

3. Mars at 23 Scorpio 22 squares Cameron's radical Mars (At the General Election last year Mars did the same from Taurus)

I think this is a very important observation due to the fact Mars is Cameron's Lord of the Year as he is in a second house/Scorpio year. Its something I based my delineation of the election on. I will return to this point.

Vicki wrote:

3. As per Bonatti (146 Considerations) whatever chart I cast I always look at the separation and next application of the Moon.

4. The Moon separates from Mars and applies by quincunx to Venus (Lord 4 and 11) in the whole sign 1st and quadrant 12th. This Venus may be conjoining Johnson's MC but this quincunx cannot perfect but demonstrates disharmony. The Moon's next application is of course a sextile to Saturn at 11 Sagittarius 41. This may be conjoining Cameron's Part of Fortune.

Interesting observations Vicki!

I see the Moon as taking Mars to Saturn and Mars conjoins the fixed star Unukulhai described by Ebertin as "a Martian force combined with Saturn and often is really dangerous and destructive. There will be chronic diseases ....weakened state". I can vouch for this having this star on my Heliocentric earth. I have been very ill for over 30 years.

Sorry to hear about your health issues Vicki. I really like fixed stars too by the way. But I didn't use them in my delineation. Looks like I missed a few tricks!

This is a brief outline and I have decided to focus on the Moon's application. I have driven myself crazy looking at Solar Returns, Profections, Tertiary Progressions, Symbolic Arc directions etc. and I decided I couldn't see the wood for the trees! You could make a case for either to win (which astrologers have already done of course).

One thing I like about traditional prediction is there is a hierarchy. At the top and most important come time lord systems like profections, decennials, distribution through the bounds, zodiacal releasing etc. From then we go to solar returns. The sign on the ASC in the annual profection is the Lord of the Year. This has particular relevance due to its place in the return chart and by transit. Only then do we focus on general transits.

I await the result eagerly for astrological reasons (leaving aside my personal preference) because I wish to learn from it.

Me too. I have gone against the odds by suggesting a Brexit. But if I am wrong I will need to go back to the drawing board. It will certainly make me hesitant to rely so heavily on an opening of poll chart in future.

If the Moon can't perfect by quincunx then its next applcation by Ptolemaic aspect is the one. I think this may indicate (and I hesitate due to inexperience) Cameron wins the day because of his Part of Fortune and because Saturn for me somehow cannot indicate change. It stands for authority and the establishment to me.

For reasons I will make clear in my next post I actually think Saturn favours Johnson over Cameron on referendum day. Saturn Rx and indeed retrogrades in general does in fact indicate change or things going against the normal order. William Lilly says that a planet retrograde ?shows a great change in the air and?sudden alteration.? (Christian Astrology p. 107). During the the storming of the Bastille in the French revolution both Saturn and Mercury were Rx.

However this victory cannot be the same as the General Election last year. Saturn is in the Whole sign 6th conjoining the fixed star Rastaban (31 min orb)which was apparently conjoining Pluto on 9/11. It is known as "the one who destroys".

Another star I failed to check. Thanks Vicki!

The MC of the Opening Poll chart conjoins Difda or Deneb Kaitos (1 degree orb) which I have seen on the MC of plane crashes etc so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Well spotted again. Mercury is on Rigel too.

Also something else interesting is the Closing Poll Chart which has the MC on 19 Scorpio (known by the ancients as the "accursed" degree) and conjoining Mars which seemed to me influential in Cameron's win last year.

I think Mars is even more activated this year. More on that later.

I could say a lot more but basically for me (rightly or wrongly) it's about the Moon but the result could well be turbulent either way.

I have no doubt your right about that.

Because I have a particular interest in fixed stars it will be interesting to see what part (if any!) they play. Unukhulhai meets Rastaban ?! We'll see!!
Maybe they'll get along just fine !

Yes I am grateful to you for all your input and spotting all those fixed stars!

Mark

Angularity - staying as it is. 7th house is staying with the EU

Signs of staying> Ingress (in aries) Asc is fixed. ASC of lunation (before voting) is virgo, a sign in the 7th house. ASC of lunation is conj Ingress part of fortune (focus on commerce and problems in the economy if the UK exit) Saturn (ruler of ingress ASC) is with the IC (angular, so stay).

Sign of exiting: moon in the 29 degree of a sign (going to detriment).

Mark - Thank you for kindly replying to my post.

I am interested regarding Saturn retrograde. William Lilly is a gap in my knowledge I should fill especially since I have a retrograde Saturn in my own chart! I certainly hope you win your bet!

I am also interested to see what you will say about Cameron's Mars.

Yuzuru wrote:

Angularity - staying as it is. 7th house is staying with the EU Signs of staying> Ingress (in aries) Asc is fixed. ASC of lunation (before voting) is virgo, a sign in the 7th house.

So your saying because the lunation ASC falls in the 7th house of the ingress by sign division this angularity and 7th house focus indicates a vote to stay/remain? Ok I see your logic. I understand the traditional idea that cadency =travel, or moving away from home. Although in hellenistic astrology the 7th house is a travel house too not just the cadent houses. Moreover, in matters of status quo vs change Bonatti assigns the ASC to no change and the 7th to change. Anyway, are you relying on any particular authority here for this method of delineating the ingress and lunation together?

Yuzuru wrote:

ASC of lunation is conj Ingress part of fortune (focus on commerce and problems in the economy if the UK exit) Saturn (ruler of ingress ASC) is with the IC (angular, so stay).

Very interesting. I suppose you would also see the lunation NN on Jupiter in Virgo in the ingress as also supporting that view.

You said this was supported from what happened in the Scottish referendum in 2014? In that year we had an Aries ingress with 17 Virgo rising. The pre-lunation before the referendum had 5 Leo rising. This degree placed it in a succedent /11th house in the Aries Ingress. So I assume you would have interpreted this as indicating no change because of the fixed sign lunation ASC and its placement not falling in a cadent house in the ingress?

Yuzuru wrote:

Sign of exiting: moon in the 29 degree of a sign (going to detriment).

Yes. That seems to fit some of the alarming predictions for the UK economy if it votes to leave!

I am going to look at David Cameron?s chart predictively relying on three main tools: profections, solar returns and transits. I would also take a brief look at Cameron?s solar arcs as I find this modern technique generally more revealing regarding outer events than secondary progressions.

Profections-Introduction

Profections are a time lord system which means they are one of several systems that highlight the prominence of a particular planet or sign in a period of a person?s life. There were numerous systems like this in ancient astrology but the only ones that survived into renaissance astrology were profections, decennials, and firdaria. I have personally used both whole sign and continuous profections for several years now. The former is based on whole sign houses and distinct annual and monthly sub periods. In contrast with continuous profections the whole chart is moved forward at the rate of 2.5 degrees and 12 signs every twelve years.

Lord of the Year-Mars

David Cameron is currently in a second house profectional year emphasizing Scorpio/Mars in his chart. By profection Cameron?s Sun and Venus also move into a second year profection. This means Mars is the Lord of the Year in Cameron?s chart so it has particular importance through its location in his solar return chart and by transit. Earlier this year Cameron was involved in a significant controversy as it was revealed that he owned shares in an off-shore mutual investment fund, Blairmore, established by his late father. While Cameron didn?t technically break the law he was clearly benefitting from tax avoidance. This led to considerable criticism of him.

However, Mars is also Lord 7 in Cameron?s chart and he has certainly faced considerable opposition from his political opponents this year. Natally, Mars is placed in the 11th house. Generally, it?s a fortunate placement but with it being activated this year it has also brought about political opposition from many of his friends and allies in the Conservative party. For example Michael Gove has been a close friend of Cameron for several years but has decided to jointly lead the Vote Leave campaign. And of course Boris Johnson changed the dynamics of the whole referendum by deciding to join the leave campaign.

In his profectional chart for the year Cameron has his Loy in the first house but it is retrograde in Scorpio at the time of the referendum squaring his natal Mars. Saturn Rx is currently transiting his second profectional house highlighting his financial problems and the frustrations he is finding in the campaign.

Although its most common to profect the ASC by whole sign we can do this with other parts of the charts. But since Cameron?s Sun and ASC ruler Venus are in Libra too they profect to the second house this year too. However, Cameron?s profected Moon (his MC ruler) moves to Virgo his 12th house this year. This in part explains many of his difficulties since his last solar return.

Current Solar Return Oct 2015-Oct 2016

Looking at his solar return for 2015-2016 Cameron is unsurprisingly facing an exceptionally challenging year. In the separate solar return chart Leo rises on the exact degree of his natal Mars. Again highlighting the significance of Mars this year. Venus falls in the first house by sign division but is in its sign of fall in Virgo. Moreover, the Moon which is Lord 12 in the chart is besieged between a separating square to Saturn and an applying conjunction to Mars (Lord 9 and 4 in that chart). Mars is of course Cameron?s Lord of the Year. It might be argued that the Moon in this chart representing the house of self undoing symbolizes Cameron?s decision to hold this referendum.

Traditionally, the solar return was primarily used as a kind of transit snapshot against the natal chart. I personally, find this more revealing than using the return as a stand alone chart. Comparing Cameron?s SR to his natal chart really highlights how dreadful this year has been for him. He has no less than 4 planets in Virgo his natal 12th house. This includes his natal ASC ruler and SR MC ruler (Venus in detriment there), his natal MC ruler (The Moon), the exaltation ruler of his MC (Jupiter), and his Lord of the Year (Mars). As noted above the ASC of the SR falls on Cameron?s Mars.

Cameron had had serious challenges in the Scottish referendum. He was in a 12th house profectional year then. However, his main political rival Alex Salmond was also in a 12th house profectional year. The difference was that David Cameron?s LOY was much better placed than Alex Salmonds.
Another major difference this time round is the placement of transiting Jupiter. In the Scottish referendum it was transiting his 11th house which also contains his MC ruler the Moon. During this referendum Jupiter is in detriment in Virgo transiting Cameron?s 12th house. So Cameron currently has no access to its protective influence and just plain luck.

Continuous Profections

Looking at Cameron?s continuous profections on referendum day there are more things highlighting his natal Mars or transiting Mars Rx. Cameron?s profected ASC falls at 22?48 Scorpio. This is conjunct transiting Mars (his Lord of the Year). His profected MC is at 23? 16 which is square transiting Mars. Cameron?s profected Mercury (Lord 9 and 12) is trine his natal Mars.

Transits

Regarding transits for referendum day I have already referred to Mars Rx squaring Cameron?s natal Mars whole sign. In the opening of poll chart Cameron?s natal ASC in Libra is on the IC of the chart. The Sun in the close of poll chart falls exactly on Cameron?s MC in Cancer. Probably to be expected as global attention is will be focused on Cameron with the outcome of the referendum taking the international spotlight. The transiting Moon falls in Cameron?5th house. This all looks quite positive. However, if we probe deeper we see some serious issues. While there is no aspects by degree during polling hours the sign of Aquarius opposes Cameron?s Moon in Leo and this will become an opposition the next day when result are likely to be in. Again there is no opposition by degree to Mars in Leo. But the fact that the Moon is transiting the sign opposing his LoY seems another negative testimony to me.
This is supported by the fact that the Moon in Aquarius is in a domicile squaring Cameron?s transiting LoY Mars. Also Transiting Mars in Scorpio is contra-antiscion Cameron?s natal Moon in Leo. (I will explore the significance of this Moon in Aquarius again when I examine Boris Johnson?s chart.)
In the close of poll chart the MC is conjunct Cameron?s Neptune. Not generally a good indicator of success. It has been widely noted by modern astrologers that Pluto is currently squaring Cameron?s chart. Transiting Saturn Rx is also conjunct his lot of fortune. Although Saturn is the Almuten of Cameron?s 1st, 4th and 5th houses so this isn?t necessarily negative.

Solar arcs

Note: I am only listing solar arcs which are closely applying less than half a degree.

David Cameron seems to have several difficult solar arcs to contend with this year. Firstly his solar arc Venus/ASC ruler is in a partile square to his natal Mars. Secondly his solar arc Jupiter (Lord 3 & 6) is conjunct his natal Uranus. Thirdly, his solar arc Mercury (Lord 9 &12) is square his natal Saturn.

Looking at things from the point of view of profections, solar return, transits and solar arcs it seems quite probable to me that Cameron could lose this referendum.

Future Trends after referendum

One observation several astrologers have made is that Cameron?s chart improves in a few months. Could this be consistent with Cameron winning the referendum and beating off his political rivals for the time being or the beginning of a quieter life on the back benches? I note that Cameron?s profected ascendant squares his Mars around mid-August. Certainly, we can expect a significant improvement for Cameron when Jupiter moves into his first house of Jupiter in September. Cameron also enters a 3rd year profectional year from his next birthday ruled by Jupiter. In the next SR chart his LoY Jupiter falls on the degree of his natal Venus. This looks a much better period. But is that because he has won the referendum and began trying to heal the party divisions or because he has stepped down as PM (perhaps after a leadership contest) and retired to the back benches?
Cameron?s secondary progressed Moon sextiles his natal Moon in September and trines his Venus in October. Once again we have a Mercury ruled theme with his SP Moon in the 9th in Gemini So International affairs and travel overseas looked indicated for Cameron over June-August. As if we haven?t heard enough of Gemini in Cameron?s chart I should also mention that the profectional monthly sub-period for Cameron during the referendum is again ruled by Gemini. Perhaps unsurprising considering this is a legal issue over an International matter.

A closer inspection of Cameron?s next SR reveals major problems. Firstly, Mars is in Capricorn squaring his Venus and Sun. The Moon in this return is in Capricorn in his natal 4th. The SR Moon is also squaring Cameron's Venus and more widely his Sun. The Moon is in detriment here. Emotionally, a moon in Capricorn can indicate a more isolated and depressing period. Pluto continues to square Cameron's Sun. I also find it very intriguing that in this SR Mercury is exactly on Cameron?s natal ascendant. As discussed Mercury rules both Cameron?s 9th and 12th houses. So is this Cameron engaging with foreign governments more than usual? Or does it indicate an end of his career being imminent? Its quite possible Cameron could stay on until the new year even if he loses the referendum. In that case the 9th and 12th house signification of Mercury would fit perfectly.
I will next take a look at Boris Johnson?s chart who is Cameron?s main political rival and widely tipped to be the next Conservative party leader if Cameron loses the referendum.

Mark

Mark wrote:Yuzuru wrote:

Angularity - staying as it is. 7th house is staying with the EU Signs of staying> Ingress (in aries) Asc is fixed. ASC of lunation (before voting) is virgo, a sign in the 7th house.

So your saying because the lunation ASC falls in the 7th house of the ingress by sign division this angularity and 7th house focus indicates a vote to stay/remain? Ok I see your logic.

i have 8 aq as ascendant in the aries ingress.. it is 12 aq in the cancer ingress.. either way, the lunation for june 20th has ascendant at 19 virgo which to me appears in the 8th, not the 7th... maybe placidus is being used to get this? this is the problem with yuzurus post... one is left to guess what he is talking about..


Yuzuru wrote:

ASC of lunation is conj Ingress part of fortune (focus on commerce and problems in the economy if the UK exit) Saturn (ruler of ingress ASC) is with the IC (angular, so stay).

Very interesting. I suppose you would also see the lunation NN on Jupiter in Virgo in the ingress as also supporting that view. [/quote]

this quote from yuzuru is also factually incorrect... aries ingress has pof at 2 cancer 12 with my software... ascendant of the lunation for june 20th has ascendant at 19 virgo as i mentioned above... now, unless someone is using different ingress or lunation charts - none of this adds up for me!