mark,

thanks for sharing that story!

the way i read it, kevin seems to break it down along the idea of what is a valid horary question, and what can you get from a natal or mundane chart? one - apparently - all objective, and the other/s - subjective mumbo jumbo when it comes to answering the question! it would be a good article for the philosophy section! your analogy - cat with the pigeons, or pigeon with the cats is a good one! that is a matter of opinion as well..

Mark wrote:

Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons (or maybe a pigeon amongst the cats?) here is an article by Kevin Burk from the Mountain Astrologer where he argues astrology (natal at least) cannot predict the next US President!

http://mountainastrologer.com/tma/astro ... -president

There are too many questions related to that article that would take this thread off track. Philosophically the question is psychology (modern tropical) vs predictive astrology (Indian and western classical). One reason I don't practice modern psychological astrology is that free will comes into the equation. Thus, I favor event astrology. We can see planetary transits approaching which can signify an approaching event, (though we may not be able to tell exactly what that event is), but we can't know how a person will react to that event. That is where free will comes into the equation.

So I hold that with the proper predictive techniques based on accurate natal charts, we can quite possibly predict winners. However, modern western astrology has become so versatile and sloppy ("I do it my way, you do it your way") that I can see many reasons why astrologers can no longer make accurate predictions. So it all depends on what kind of astrology the astrologer is practicing and what kind of forecasting techniques are employed--whether those techniques have proven their worth through research and testing or should be discarded due to giving false or ambiguous results.

So it's a big question: What IS astrology anyway?? There are dozens of possible answers. Each astrologer has to make a personal choice.

P.S. Would it be possible to shrink Stellarlium's chart to Message Board size (640x480) to make reading much easier for those of us with smaller screens?? Long text lines that have to be scrolled just don't work for easy reading.

Curtis, I just caught up on your linked article. Bravo.

You predicted a difficult autumn for Clinton. Of course, many in the Trump and Sanders camps are hoping she will get indicted over her State Department emails. (Which , although not a finding of guilt, puts forward sufficient evidence to proceed to a grand jury.) My thought is that even if the FBI finds she's broken no laws, the exculpatory evidence still won't gloss over violations of State Department policies and procedures; and that her opponents will charge that the Democratic executive branch whitewashed the FBI findings.

Is this scenario consistent with your analysis?

Does anyone know of an astrologer with an excellent (if imperfect) method of predicting (or post-dicting) presidential election outcomes? If so, can you link a site or explain their methods?

One topic that is sometimes overlooked is getting the right house system for a candidate. I find that generally Placidus works just fine, BUT-- one size does not fit all. Clinton's chart with an 8:00 am (or as near as dammit) birth time works well-- in whole signs. It positions her domiciled Jupiter in the second house, and puts her Scorpio-Leo planets in the angular first and tenth houses. (Depending on the source, the Clintons' personal net worth is somewhere around $80 to $110 million; despite modest beginnings.) Billionaire Donald Trump's Jupiter is in the second house with Placidus, however. Alice Portman www.aliceportman.com found that Regiomontanus works best for the British royal family.

I'm also coming around to the view, after playing around with different charts on different issues, that one size does not fit all so far as prognostication methods go for given individuals or events. However, some methods should work well for a given event if predictive astrology means anything whatsoever; and they should zing something in the chart (a house or planet) that signifies the topic in question.

It occurred to me that becoming the POTUS would be a monumental event in anybody's life; and it should show up as something involving the MC or 10th house. This doesn't mean a nominee can't have other issues going on in his/her life simultaneously, but we'd expect at least some significant action going on with the MC or 10th house, would we not?

Uranus modernly rules sudden change, and (tropical) solar arc Uranus hits Clinton's MC with the ca. 8:00 am birth time, and squares Trump's MC on election day.

Then, I think that if we apply a range of prognosticative methods, theoretically these should compound to give at least some probabilities.

But I take the point that getting to election day is a lengthy process with many intermediate steps; and perhaps we need to look at them: announcement of a candidacy, key primary state dates, the party's national convention, early voting start-dates, election day, and the date when the Electoral College finally votes.

Trouble is, this is a whole lot more work than most of us are willing to undertake. (Speaking for myself, naturally.)

so accordingly then, it is the ''right'' astrology, or the ''right'' house system.. got it! mark - look what you've invited with that article!!

The Republican convention which chooses the presidential candidate to run against Hillary Clinton began yesterday, July 18 in Cleveland, Ohio. A concerted effort to stop Donald Trump failed, so as the people's choice, he will have the nomination before the convention is over. As a renegade, Trump has little favor from Republican party leaders. They are being forced to support a candidate they would like to see disappear.

EDIT: 20 July 2016
Those who are staying away from the convention:

3. Who isn't going? Some senior figures who don't like Donald Trump have stayed away, including two ex-presidents named Bush, former nominee Mitt Romney and Ohio Governor John Kasich.

4. What's the schedule?

Wednesday - VP nominee Mike Pence
Thursday - Donald Trump, introduced by daughter Ivanka

http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-36841851

So I hold that with the proper predictive techniques based on accurate natal charts, we can quite possibly predict winners.

I'm afraid I've come to the opposite conclusion when it comes to democratic elections. How in the world can we tell how tens of millions of people will vote based on someone else's natal chart? In the US Presidential election even that isn't enough as the electoral college has to be taken into consideration - just ask Al Gore. Somehow all of this can be determined with Donald Trump's and/or Hillary Clinton's accurate birth data? I doubt it.

We can see a rise in eminence perhaps, but winning the election? If I were nominated to run for President that would signify a rise in eminence for me. To the everlasting regret of the republic, I would most likely be defeated, but it is still an honor to be nominated.

If eminence in the birth chart is all we need, well then prepare for a Trump Presidency because his ASC is conjunct Regulus, a martial kingly star. That is not a prediction because if he wins, I doubt having Regululs on the ASC is enough, and if he loses, he has still risen to prominence.

I recall the 2004 election and the group I belonged to was looking at John Kerry's chart and swooning because he had a happy Venus transit over his MC on election day, and nothing was going on in the GW Bush chart. None of us recall the John Kerry Administration for a good reason. Oh he had a wonderful day as the transit predicted. He was almost elected President of the United States. Not many of us can say that, but he lost.

So what's the trick for predicting the president? I don't know, and I doubt there is a way to do it. Astrology was devised long before the idea of popular elections of leaders was a viable concept. Trying to adapt such a complex process to a natal chart alone is, in my view, a serious stretch, and doesn't even address the nagging issue of personal bias. Show me an astrologer's prediction and I'll tell you how he votes. I like to tell people that if the only time you're right is when your guy wins, you're not doing anything of value.

I still play the game, though, in private and my predictions are about as accurate as my Super Bowl predictions, which is to say - not very.

FOOTNOTE: I can relate one scarily accurate prediction from 1988. The Astrological Society of Princeton (NJ) was discussing the charts of G.H.W Bush and Michael Dukakis. There was no clear indication of consensus among the group. But Ken Negus, the group's (still surviving and serving) President looked at the chart and said; "We can't really tell from this, but one thing is certain, whoever it is will only serve one term."

That's good because that is exactly what happened. Years later I reminded him of that prediction and asked him how he did it. He replied, "I don't remember." Arghhhhhhhhhh

There's an interesting article by Patrick Watson here:

http://www.patrickwatsonastrologer.com/ ... rediction/

I'm coming around to the idea that Hillary was probably born a few minutes after 8 AM. While I agree with most of Watson's analysis, there's still a problem about eminence that bugs me. The idea is that if the timelordship is angular for one chart and succedent or cadent for another, then the former is supposed to prevail. The problem I see is the assumption that the eminence is the same. In other words, how do I know that Hillary's angularity is necessarily better than Trump's succedent periods? Given roughly equal polls, one might make the assumption that they are roughly at the same level of eminence.

But what if the determining factor is some chart that no one knows (such as the Thema Mundi)? Valens said that one was supposed to compare the lords of the year, month, day and hour from the arising of Sirius with the chart of the ruler.

Romney is right now in a highly active period, that pardon me, Trumps Hillary's time lord sequence right now. He is however suffering from a south node transit the 10th house (whole sign place). Hillary is going to have this going over the north node. So reluctantly, I'd have to say given all things being equal, I think Hillary will win.

Sorry Tom, it's not how I'll vote. I supported Nader for years but was never foolish enough to predict that he would win. I won't vote the lesser of two evils argument either. To me that's the same thing as throwing away your vote.

Tom wrote:

I'm afraid I've come to the opposite conclusion when it comes to democratic elections. How in the world can we tell how tens of millions of people will vote based on someone else's natal chart?

One of the main characteristics of the Skyscript forum is that there is a great deal of theoretical talk and comparatively little actual research with charts. The philosophy of western siderealism and India's astrology is that predication is possible. In particular the modern western sidereal school uses solar returns and other cyclic charts for prediction.

Below are the Washington DC Enneads (40 day charts within the solar return year) for the 2016 U.S. presidential election date for both candidates. Either these charts have no validity or it's not even a contest based on planets on angles or aspecting angles (asc/desc/MC/IC).

Simply consider the innate nature of the planets and ignore signs of the zodiac since these charts have to be calculated without precession (sidereal). Hillary Clinton's presumed natal ascendant is Gemini, ruled by Mercury. Donald Trump's ascendant is Leo, house of the Sun. (House cusp lines are considered the center points of equal houses.)
Hillary Clinton:
Sun and Mercury at the NG (zenith point) (Mercury cazimi)
Ennead MC conjunct natal Jupiter
Ennead Jupiter partile trine the Ascendant
Natal Lot of Fortune conjunct Ennead ascendant
Donald Trump:
Saturn at the NG (zenith point)
Ennead MC conjunct natal Ketu (south node--loss)
Ennead Ketu (south node) on the Ascendant

Data update: Donald Trump was officially proposed as the Republican party candidate for the 2016 Presidential Election by the Republican National convention, in Cleveland, Ohio, at 19.14 local time on 19th of July 2016.
Mark

Therese Hamilton wrote:

One of the main characteristics of the Skyscript forum is that there is a great deal of theoretical talk and comparatively little actual research with charts.

A forum is by definition just that. A place where people with all kinds of astrological ideas, knowledge, and skills gather and can choose to post as much or as little as they like. There is often a lack of cohesion in threads with people using different techniques and possessing contrasting astrological outlooks. These are the characteristics of all astrology forums not just Skyscript.

In that respect any forum can be compared unfavourably with a blog or website of one astrologer where a coherent, and consistent approach using one set of astro tools can be presented.

Having said that if you checked out the recent forum thread on whether the UK would leave the European Union there was a plethora of charts examined and no shortage of prediction.

I also put together research on astrologers making detailed predictions on the UK Brexit. The prediction success rate was quite impressive. Especially, for western traditional astrology:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9161

From what I can gather most Indian astrologers predicted Brexit wouldn't happen:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/mar ... 863770.cms

Therese Hamilton wrote:

The philosophy of western siderealism and India's astrology is that predication is possible.

That is the position of traditional western tropical astrology too. And many if not all western tropicalists also adhere to this outlook. The real question though is whether nativities in themselves are sufficient to do this.

Therese Hamilton wrote:

In particular the modern western sidereal school uses solar returns and other cyclic charts for prediction.

Again something a western traditional astrologer using the tropical zodiac would recognise. I rely very heavily on solar returns and profections.

But I think Tom has a point. Firstly, the tradition passed down to us in the west is that there are various branches in astrology. Mundane astrology may incorporate the nativities of key figures but these charts are often seen as subordinate to other charts such as ingress, eclipses, or foundational charts for the kingdom/nation.

And our tradition was born in a time of Kings who usually obtained power by the sword or by simple succession. Very different from the political nuances of modern democratic politics. And in countries with multi-party systems the trends are less simplistic than party A or B that applies in the USA.

I think it is much easier to tell if an incumbent will win or lose through the nativity alone. For example, David Cameron's solar return and profections this year indicated a likely career ending year to me.

But if you have two nativities (one relying on rectification) both competing equally for high office for the first time its more tricky. A person may come closer to political success than at any time in their life so enjoy great transits/solar return/profections but still fail to win. I think we can detect who has a fair wind behind them and who doesn't but I dont think we should be relying exclusively on nativities for such questions.

To pick up the public geist I would look at the Jupiter-Saturn cycle, then the ingress, pre-lunation, and relevant eclipses. I would also look at foundational charts such as the POTUS and Federal Constitution chart. I am not entirely, convinced that an opening of poll chart works for US elections due to the prior voting in person allowed in many states, variable polling hours and the electoral college system.

As I see it anyway, the individual nativities of the Presidential candidates should fit into a subordinate place within such an approach.

Mark

Therese Hamilton wrote: One of the main characteristics of the Skyscript forum is that there is a great deal of theoretical talk and comparatively little actual research with charts. The philosophy of western siderealism and India's astrology is that predication is possible. In particular the modern western sidereal school uses solar returns and other cyclic charts for prediction.

Therese,

( trying to stay positive here).. there is nothing to prevent anyone from offering any number of astrological insights which typically come out of independent research and exploration via their love of interest in astrology.. one can go on about whatever astrological viewpoint they want to further, but regardless of the view, people need to be convinced with substance and astrology..


it would appear your charts here rely on a specific birth time for hillary, when their is no guarantee on the validity of the chart, there is no guarantee the 'research' is in any way relevant .. until something changes, it's one persons view in contrast to others here at skyscript forum or elsewhere.. their may be some ''astrological guru'' claiming to have all the answers based on research who some wish to put their faith in, but again - it is an equal playing field where an exchange of ideas, research and etc of astrology defines skyscript and all other places that i have seen.. i am grateful to have an outlet to discuss, or share ideas, so kudos to deb houlding for allowing skyscript and by extension - all other forums where astrology is allowed to be discussed with other interested people.. and for the record, i am especially impressed with deb houldings hands off approach.. the lady has a lot of class as i see it for allowing skyscript to continue..

mark

thanks for sharing the time for trumps acceptance as rep leader..

James:

thanks for sharing the time for trumps acceptance as rep leader..

He didn't. That's tonight (Thursday 7/21). Mark gave the time Trump was officially nominated, i.e. the time the New York delegation gave him the number of votes he needed to become the nominee. At some point in the beginning of his speech tonight, he will utter the words: "I accept your nomination for President of the United States." I have no opinion on which chart is more relevant.