Pankajdubey wrote:

This one for Khartoum and Aryabhatta ayanamsha comes closest to what you want.
The chart is sidereal and the MC,Asc and Moon match closely.

19 March 571 AD Julian
7.55PM LMT
Khartoum or some special place in Early Arabic Sudan for which they may have had Table of Latitudes etc.

Aryabhatta ayanamsha 522 AD(=Zero year)
This is on Astrodienst drop down menu of Ayanamshas.

Interesting. That is new ayanamsa for me. Certainly Aryabhata was a briliant astronomer. Historically he lived in the period (476 CE?550CE) while Abu' Mashar was alive during (787CE-886CE).

I was aware of interaction between Islamic science and Indian astronomy but is it plausible they would still be relying on Aryabhatas solar tables over 300 years later? Even assuming they were the primary source in the first place which is surely an open question. I suppose its possible later Indian astronomers were also an influence too like Bh?skara I (c. 600-680) and Lalla (c. 720?790 CE).

I see your point but I still think its odd to locate the chart for Khartoum irrespective of tables. Very hard to believe they didn't have tables calculated for the capital of the Caliphate, Baghdad by the time of Abu'Mashar.

Mark

Abu'Mashar provides another Aries ingress chart for the foundation of Islam based on Horoscope of the Hegira (Hijra) when Muhammed left Mecca and joined his followers in Medina.

Its cited in Abu Mashar's The Book of Religions and Dynasties, chapter 8, page 129 trans by Keiji Yamamoto and Charles Burnett.


Data: March 21, 622 CE
Time: 11:38 A.M.
Location: Medina, Saudi Arabia


A Conjunction of Mars and Saturn, is in the first house.
Venus,planet of the Arabs,lies in the house of religion,house 9 WSH
New Moon at house 11 ,marks the beginning of the religion.
Hopefully, this will assist further in clarifying the zodiac used by Abu 'Mashar.

Mark

I guess we will have to ask Abu Mashar if he was printing them as they were reported in some other text or he himself calculated all of them.Were there that many 300 yr old ephemeris available then.

In this chart his Aries ingress is at 2 degree 56 min Aries !!
And the new moon , he is probably talking of the crescent moon.

Ideally, the crescent moon should have been visible the day before and hence the movement on the next day.
With the data of the day before and Aryabhatta ayanamsha- it all kooks much closer.

Aries ingress and Cresent new moon.

PD

Pankajdubey wrote:

In this chart his Aries ingress is at 2 degree 56 min Aries !!

Yes. Does this still correspond to your Aryabhata ayanamsa?

Mark

Mark wrote:Pankajdubey wrote:

In this chart his Aries ingress is at 2 degree 56 min Aries !!

Yes. Does this still correspond to your Aryabhata ayanamsa?


Mark

The crescent moon visibility should have been the previous day and that chart would give you Aries 0 degree 30 min or so and Moon that is 26 degrees away from sun at noon .

20 March 622 AD julian

11.28 LMT
Medina

It also fulfils all other criteria:

Venus in 9th
Mars ,Saturn in 1st and New moon crescent.

Hello Pankajdubey,

In fairness I should have said that I dont own the translation of Abu'Mashar by Charles Burnett and Keiji Yamamoto previously cited.

I got the information on the Hegara chart from an old Skyscript thread where a member posted the data. Here were his comments.

Hello, as a contribuition i would like to share the Horoscope of Hegira according to Abu Mashar (The book of religions and dynasties,chapter eight pag 129 -Yamamoto and Burnett translation).

......As usual,medieval astrologers cast an ingress solar Aries chart in order to do analyses of historic events in perspective.

Data:March 21,622 11:38 A.M. Medina-Saudi Arabia (39e36/24n28)
Asc: 2 Cancer 12 M.C.21 Piscis 50

A Conjunction of Mars and Saturn,at 22 Cancer,falls in the Ascendant
Venus,planet of the Arabs,lies in the house of religion,house 9.
New Moon at house 10,mark the beginning of the religion.

All the best
Gerson

It occurs to me my post has simply added more confusion! I put up the time of 11.38AM on March 21st 622 as suggested by that poster. However, note that in the tropical zodiac that chart gives both a rising degree and MC about 3-4 degrees out from that cited. Also according to the poster the crescent moon is in the 10th not the 11th house as I cited.

So good luck to anyone who can combine this time and these ASC/MC degrees to a specific zodiac.

Thanks

Mark