James wrote:

which chart are folks more inclined to use - the clinton nominee time, or the clinton time of being nominated? the first chart looks bad, while the 2nd one is much more favourable.. thanks..

This sounds like the same thing. Do you mean when the state roll call cinches the nomination compared to when the person accepts the nomination? The acceptance is on the final day of the convention. I have found the roll call time to be the most significant based on transits to the natal chart. So as Mark noted above, "The Ayes Have It", 18:55:20 PM for Hillary Clinton. But her acceptance would have importance as well.

It might be worth noticing that in about 2 weeks, there will be a significant realignment by transit of planetary positions found in the 2016 ingress chart set for Washington DC. (The first post in this thread links to Nina Gryphon's analysis of the ingress chart in case anyone wants to brush up on that).
I earmarked this period some time ago as one in which political matters could escalate globally, but since the US ingress chart has Mars rising on the ascendant, and Jupiter culminating on the MC, and both of these experience prominent activations around 12-13th August, it seems that this period should have particular relevance for US politics. For example, on 12 August:
T Mars is conjunct ingress Mars on the asc (4.35 Sag). At the same time T Mars is moving closely into its conjunction with Saturn (9.46 Sag) and the Moon moves between the two.
The T Sun - itself on the trine of Uranus - is within a couple of degrees of the Moon in the ingress chart (23 Leo).
(On 13th August there is a grand trine of planets that activate the ingress Moon, with the T Moon at 23 Sag, Sun at 21 Leo and Uranus at 24 Aries).
The US ingress chart has Jupiter debilitated on the MC and Mercury debilitated near the IC. On 12 August T Mercury is conjunct the degree of Jupiter and the MC in the ingress chart whilst T Jupiter is within 2 degrees of the opposition to the ingress Mercury. There are several other noticeable connections but I can't upload an image (sorry) as I only have a laptop at the moment which has no image editing software on it - long story: suffice to say that I am thinking of writing a musical score to narrate the events of why I am not yet united with long-awaited new computer system as it would make a very entertaining opera.
Just thought I'd pass this observation on for others to follow up if they wish: ingress charts set out the theme of the year, and with so much being reactivated around this time, it would seem to me that the period highlights the tone of the year as a whole.

Therese Hamilton wrote: This sounds like the same thing.

thanks theresa... i am talking about the 2 different times and charts for the '''hillary process'' , but thanks for your help here, lol..

additional comment on this - beginning of process and end of process times.. that is what i am curious how anyone here utilizes the times for these drawn out affairs... i would prefer to use a natal chart, but any chart that seems like it has merit is worth considering, so i guess i am answering my question here, but maybe others have some thoughts on the process...

deb - further to your comment - reading the article below right now..
http://johnhelmer.net/?p=16140

here is the opening quote "On August 9, in St. Petersburg, Russia?s President Vladimir Putin will meet Turkey?s President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. The moment is revolutionary. There has not been a comparable political turning-point in the 67 years since the establishment of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO); not in the century since the Ottoman Empire sided with Germany against Russia in World War I; nor in the two centuries since Ottoman Sultan Mahmud II and the Russian Tsar Alexander I aligned against Napoleon and the British. "

This is not the place to debate this but I just want to mention that one can arrive at the same conclusions using both Sidereal and Tropical for the same chart if one delineates by relying on the rather in depth techniques outlined by older astrological authors. The reason being is that these techniques are about finding confluence and thus repetitions of factors in order to render accurate judgement. For example Umar, Mashallah, Bonatti, Lilly will tell you to look at about 5-6 different houses/planets/parts for a given topic, say marriage, and to base your delineation on what emerges through careful examination of all of these. Should Saturn be opposing the Sun and ruling the lot of marriage in a woman's chart then we have a strong repetition of Saturn influencing the husband etc. This is a truly holistic approach and overrides single factors in birth chart analysis. Horary is quite a bit simpler in my experience. Rob Hand talks about how he went toe to toe with a prominent Indian astrologer who used sidereal and they arrived at very similar conclusions but using different methods.

Okay having gotten that out of the way it is very important to note that in Hillary's nomination chart posted above by Mark the Moon is not void and applies (albeit by square but I do not think this so important other than perhaps indicating struggle in the election) to the Sun, dignified in Leo (angular by alchabitius houses) which as we all should know represents The King, power, authority. The Moon is also quite dignified by being exalted. Finally the ruler of the MC is a powerfully dignified Mars in Scorpio and the 11th and also is the exalted lord of the rising sign. These are powerful signs to me that she will win and I take these to be more important than any natal indications of either candidates chart.

The chart for Trump being nominated features a weak void of course Moon in Capricorn and separating from the opposition to the Sun. Mars is not the ruler of the MC, instead it is Venus who resides in the darkened 8th house. The Sun also has no real dignity. Finally I think it is important to note that while the Moon is void her next aspect is to Saturn retrograde in the 12th, albeit by sextile with reception but I don't see this as a good sign for a victory.

The chart for his acceptance is even worse in many regards for Saturn retrograde afflicts the MC and the lord Jupiter is in detriment (though in his own bound) and conjoined the Head (not always a benefic influence, sometimes a blinding and unstable influence). The Moon is again void and this time will next aspect Saturn whilst in Pisces with no reception and Saturn will be in a superior square from the 10th (domination) in a night chart - one of the worst kind of afflictions. Finally the Sun is practically cadent and in the bounds of Saturn and not in regard to the Moon. This is a very weakened Sun. The Moon also does not regard Jupiter and the Tail sits in the 1st.

These testimonies, to my mind, signify loss for Trump.

Hillary Rodham Clinton formally accepted the Democratic Party nomination as the 45th President of the United States at 22:47.20, EDT , Philadelphia, Pennsylvania on July 28th 2016.

If elected Mrs Clinton would be the first female to hold the office of American President since the first US President George Washington was inaugurated in 1789.

22.27.37. Hillary Clinton Entered Conference stage
22.29.56. Hillary Clinton began speaking
22.47.20. Hillary Clinton accepted the Democratic party nomination
23.26 Hillary Clinton finished her speech

Moon opposition Saturn, ruler of 10th, hmmm.
But moon will complete a sextile with sun before this, although without reception. The sun will also trine saturn.

Assuming that the AM time is correct, Mars would be in her ASC.
Venus transits her Saturn
Sun transits ASC by contrasticia


There are, as always, problems, but me thinks it is a strong enough chart.

Yuzuru wrote:

There are, as always, problems, but me thinks it is a strong enough chart.

Based on several kinds of charts I believe Clinton will win. Now that the Convention hullabaloo is over I will be concentrating on some charts to support this view.

Mark

I note that the Moon again applies to the Sun, this time by sextile. Mars, the Asc lord, is bonified by a superior square from Venus even though no reception intervene. They are both of the sect in favor and this is powerful especially as Venus is in the superior position.

What is fascinating is that Trump nomination chart features void Moon next aspect is sextile Saturn. His acceptance chart we see void Moon and next application to square Saturn. With Hillary we see the exact opposite and the symmetry is truly beautiful. The Moon applies to square the Sun in her nomination chart and then tonight applies to a sextile. Amazing.

The Moon also applies to aspect the Asc right after the Sun. Mars is now both lord of the 1st and exalted lord of the 10th and has regard of it by sextile, whereas Saturn, the primary lord does not regard it. There are difficulties indicated for her both before she gets elected and after (Moon to oppose Saturn etc.) but all in all this looks very good for her.

I am now thoroughly convinced she will win.

The dates and formats for the Presidential and Vice-Presidential debates

Monday, September 26, 2016
First presidential debate
Location: Hofstra University, Hempstead, NY

The first debate will be divided into six time segments of approximately 15 minutes each on major topics to be selected by the moderator and announced at least one week before the debate. The moderator will open each segment with a question, after which each candidate will have two minutes to respond. Candidates will then have an opportunity to respond to each other. The moderator will use the balance of the time in the segment for a deeper discussion of the topic.

Tuesday, October 4, 2016
Vice presidential debate
Location: Longwood University, Farmville, VA

The Vice Presidential debate will be divided into nine time segments of approximately 10 minutes each. The moderator will ask an opening question, after which each candidate will have two minutes to respond. The moderator will use the balance of the time in the segment for a deeper discussion of the topic.

Sunday, October 9, 2016
Second presidential debate
Location: Washington University in St. Louis, St. Louis, MO

The second presidential debate will take the form of a town meeting, in which half of the questions will be posed directly by citizen participants and the other half will be posed by the moderator based on topics of broad public interest as reflected in social media and other sources. The candidates will have two minutes to respond and there will be an additional minute for the moderator to facilitate further discussion. The town meeting participants will be uncommitted voters selected by the Gallup Organization.

Wednesday, October 19, 2016
Third presidential debate
Location: University of Nevada, Las Vegas, Las Vegas, NV

The third debate will be divided into six time segments of approximately 15 minutes each on major topics to be selected by the moderator and announced at least one week before the debate. The moderator will open each segment with a question, after which each candidate will have two minutes to respond. Candidates will then have an opportunity to respond to each other. The moderator will use the balance of the time in the segment for a deeper discussion of the topic.

Mark

Mark wrote:

Hillary Rodham Clinton formally accepted the Democratic Party nomination as the 45th President of the United States at 22:47.20, EDT , Philadelphia, Pennsylvania on July 28th 2016.

Thanks, Mark. I got 22:47:12, but close enough! Did you find the time online? I was watching the convention locally.

The time here in California was 7:47 PM which is the name of Boeing's iconic 747 jumbo jet. Is this an omen for Hillary's campaign?!

The Acceptance chart has Hillary's 8:01:30 PM sidereal Pisces Moon on the Ascendant which puts her PM Gemini Ascendant on the IC. (Or viewed from her natal chart, Acceptance ascendant conjoins her [equal house] 10th house natal Moon.)

Acceptance Moon is trine Hillary's PM Lot of fortune with a 34' orb. And since Fortuna is with the Moon in the Acceptance chart, it also is trine Hillary's Fortuna.

The Sun in the event chart opposes Hillary's PM Lot of Fortune with a 2? orb. So both Sun and Moon aspect natal Fortuna, which is very specific for the time of birth.

Hillary's natal Sun is sextile Acceptance MC with a 16 minute orb.

Does astrology work or not?!!

These contacts and others seem to verify a PM time of birth. The sidereal chart below has Hillary's natal planets in the center, and Acceptance transits on the outer wheel. Considering that Hillary's Pisces Moon is on the ascendant of the Acceptance chart, here is some interesting symbolism:

(1) The Moon's astrological color is white. Hillary wore all white on the night of her acceptance of the nomination.

(2)The Moon represents change because of its waxing and waning properties each month. A Hillary campaign slogan is Change Maker supported with hundreds or thousands of campaign signs.

(3) When daughter Chelsea gave her speech about her mother, she mentioned that a favorite childhood book was Goodnight Moon.

Another theme of the campaign is unity and a common purpose: Stronger Together This could well be universal Piscean symbolism, the 12th sign of the zodiac, number 12 being all inclusive as it contains all the numbers 1 through 12.

Dennis Elwell especially has pointed out that our astrological symbols have much broader meanings than the psychological traits we tend to give them.

Therese wrote:

Thanks, Mark. I got 22:47:12, but close enough! Did you find the time online? I was watching the convention locally.

No I stayed up to the wee small hours here just to get the exact time. I used an online electronic clock. However, she took about 5 seconds to complete a sentence accepting and you could take 5 seconds off the time I gave if you took it from when she started to say she was accepting. I timed it from when she completed her sentence accepting. I suppose its possible the Satellite transmitting this to the UK gave a few seconds time delay. In any case most astrologers seem happy with 22:47 EDT as close enough.

Mark

Mark wrote:

I suppose its possible the Satellite transmitting this to the UK gave a few seconds time delay. In any case most astrologers seem happy with 22:47 EDT as close enough.

I'm sure satellite transmission accounts for the difference in seconds. I've noticed when switching between TV stations running the same program, that one station will be a few seconds ahead of another. So 22:47 should work well enough for everyone. There may even be a few seconds difference between the convention time on the east coast of the US and time here in California.

On this topic I've given several examples of how removing precession gives tighter transit orbs for older candidates measured against significant event times in their lives. It seems that if we're looking for important research material to support astrology (as opposed to the lack of evidence in Dean's Tests of Astrology), this is a good place to start. Transit orbs are mathematical, hard factual material and can't be discounted.