this is a follow up to my post from Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:24 am on this thread..

i note a few things - i don't have an actual chart for either davutoglu or erdogan - just a day chart.. it would appear the eclipse cycle in close proximity to important parts in both these leaders is having an impact on matters in turkey... this is from bbc today - Turkey PM Ahmet Davutoglu to quit amid reports of Erdogan rift

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36213401

i do wonder how this all plays out over the course of the year... turkey finds itself in an increasingly challenging set of circumstances on many levels.. i can't imagine this boding well for turkey either...

this was probably shaping up in davutoglus mind for some time.. the obvious astro ties into his chart a number of ways here.. below is davutoglus natal day chart with transits on the outside...


screenshot on pc

just want to make a note of the 'incursion' or trespass into syria from turkeys armed forces happened today ( august 24 2016) at approx 4-405am at jarablus, syria under the turkish title of 'euphrates shield'... the timing of this coincides on the day of the mars-saturn conjunction which i shared up above in my feb 19 2016 444am post...

if you set the lunar eclipse chart for sept 16 2016 to jarablus, syria - 9 gemini 35 is the ascendant, which happens to be only 5 minutes away from the opposition to mars in the chart from earlier today when this entrance into syrian territory took place..

also coincidentally today aug 24th is the 500th anniversary of the battle of marj dabiq which holds some significance to turkish history and to which some turkish papers were quick to draw a connection to...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Marj_Dabiq

http://www.anfenglish.com/news/isis-han ... to-the-akp

i continue to see turkey in a challenging situation and get the impression they are playing a bit of a double game which involves the usa and russia.. obviously they are in a location that is very central to geo-politics at the moment and act like a bridge between europe and asia...

i wanted to share a technique i have been exploring that is kinda cool.. essentially it is directing the natal chart forward thru the year at a rate of 360 degrees per year.. i choose the date aug 24th as that was the date of the mars/saturn conjunction and the date of turkeys entry into syria in the jarablus area... it seems like some sort of tacit approval was given for this incursion inside syrias border.. perhaps a trade off was worked out which one can read about if they are interested.. i think this technique of moving the natal chart forward approx 1 degree per day is interesting, if nothing else!

below is a chart for turkey with this technique i mention in the chart on the outer wheel..

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James_M wrote:

i wanted to share a technique i have been exploring that is kinda cool.. essentially it is directing the natal chart forward thru the year at a rate of 360 degrees per year.. i choose the date aug 24th as that was the date of the mars/saturn conjunction and the date of turkeys entry into syria in the jarablus area... it seems like some sort of tacit approval was given for this incursion inside syrias border.. perhaps a trade off was worked out which one can read about if they are interested.. i think this technique of moving the natal chart forward approx 1 degree per day is interesting, if nothing else!

Interesting. I have been exploring the user rate progressions myself. I have been using the Age Point technique of the Norwegian astrologer Andrew Bevan. Basically, you track the ASC through the chart in diurnal order (clockwise motion). It takes 6 years to travel 30 degrees at an annual rate of 5 degrees. So it takes 60 years to traverse the whole chart. Bevan claims some traditional authorities for this approch. Its essentially a kind of time lord system.

We also have the medieval and renaissance use of continuous profections where we have the whole chart moving forward 30 degrees per year taking 12 years to travel the whole chart.

Your 1 degree per day approach sounds very similar to the way the angles are calculared in Mean Quotdian secondary progressions. These are the ''real'' SP angles based on the fast moving daily angles of a chart which travel through all 12 signs in a single day. On a day for a year Mean Quotdian basis this works out at approximately a degree a day applied to the angles. In so called ''normal'' SPs the angles are not based on secondary progessions at all but rather primary directions. That is why they move so slowly.

I have found Mean Quotdian angles useful at pinpointing key dates so your idea of applying a degree for a day system to the whole chart sounds well worth exploring further.

Mark

Yes James symbolic directions are "kinda cool" ! They are my mainstay but I use the one degree per year method and haven't tried this 360 degrees to a year method and I also haven't tried the method used by Andrew Bevan, to which Mark refers.

Note that in your 360 degree method the Asc. has reached 3Taurus30 (if I'm reading it right - can't see it very clearly). This conjoins Mesarthim a fixed star in Aries said to be of the nature of Mars and Saturn suggesting a martial characteristic. By my one degree method the Asc. reaches 10Libra36 conjoining Vindemiatrix, a death star. This conjoined the triple conjunction of 1980/81 which I consider to be still operative and not just an "aberration"

Looking at transits forTurkey what is particularly noticeable is the transiting lunar nodes return in mid November with Neptune conjoining the South node at 10 Pisces. This will also be significant on US election day, something I intend to post about later.

I also apply one degree directions to the outer planet conjunctions. If you look at the lesser mutation of May 2000 it fell at 22Taurus43 and this year in November will reach 8Gemini13 which in the case of Turkey is in its WS 12th and making a T Square to the nodes.

mark and vicki - thanks for these comments..

i'd be curious if andrew bevan provided the background on that technique.. has he done so on his website?

vicki.. that is interesting about the fixed star at 3 taurus and it being of the nature of mars/saturn as well.. directing the whole chart 1 degree per year is quite common..most astrologers know it as solar arc direction, using the solar arc of approx 1 degree to direct the whole chart 1 degree per year.. i do it all the time too! the idea of directing it 360 a year, or approx 1 degree a day - i haven't read about it, but maybe someone else has done it... regardless - directing the may 2000 jupiter-saturn 1 degree per year does get the conjunction at 8 gemini.. it is still within the degree of where the sun is on the day of the conjunction at 7 gemini and yes - this goes back to turkeys nodal axis, skipping over what it might imply for the whole world over the 20 year course of this jupiter-saturn conjunction!

and 8 degree gemini or mutable connects very strongly onto erdogans chart as well! take a look at the connections between erdogans chart and all of these charts.. at present the north nodal axis is at approx 12 virgo moving into opposition with his natal sun and squaring onto natal mars and quite likely his moon.. since we don't have a birth time for him, the location of his natal moon is moving at a rate of 12 degree 20 minutes per day.. i have it at 12 sag for noon, which means - it is anywhere from approx 6 to 18 sag, going from midnight to midnight on the day of his birth.. so, it too is caught up in this nodal axis transit..

what is interesting is that in dec. 1997 he recited a poem which was considered an expression of religious intolerance. over the course of 1998 and 1999 is the time when he was removed as mayor of istanbul, went to prison for a few months based on the charge of religious intolerance and this also seems to have been the time where he re-branded himself to eventually establish and start the akp in 2001... the transit of north node thru the very same area it was then - virgo - is where it is now.. obviously this is important to the chart for turkey, the chart we have for erdogan and both in terms of the present..

James I'll get back to you later on Erdogan's chart but I just wanted to say that I don't work with solar arcs. Symbolic arcs are different to solar arcs. The solar arc method directs everything forward in accordance with the motion of the Sun which rarely moves exactly one degree per day and is faster in the winter than the summer.

The symbolic arc method directs everything by an exact 1 degree regardless of the Sun's motion.

I don't know of any well known astrologer currently working with symbolic arcs. Noel Tyl and Frank Clifford for instance use solar arcs.
Perhaps not all computer software can calculate symbolic arcs and certainly I had to dig around in my Janus software to get the right setting.
However I do them in my head and find them to be more accurate than solar arcs. A great pity.

Charles Carter was a keen exponent of symbolic arcs and hoped they would catch on in the future but I think they never did and astrologers now only work with solar arcs.

James I'll get back to you later on Erdogan's chart but I just wanted to say that I don't work with solar arcs. Symbolic arcs are different to solar arcs. The solar arc method directs everything forward in accordance with the motion of the Sun which rarely moves exactly one degree per day and is faster in the winter than the summer.

The symbolic arc method directs everything by an exact 1 degree regardless of the Sun's motion.

I don't know of any well known astrologer currently working with symbolic arcs. Noel Tyl and Frank Clifford for instance use solar arcs.
Perhaps not all computer software can calculate symbolic arcs and certainly I had to dig around in my Janus software to get the right setting.
However I do them in my head and find them to be more accurate than solar arcs.

Charles Carter was a keen exponent of symbolic arcs and hoped they would catch on in the future but I think they never did and astrologers now only work with solar arcs. A great pity.

hi vicki,

solar arc is a type of symbolic arc... whether one uses 1 degree or 59.. whatever minutes - you get the idea... they are all 'symbolic' directions, as i understand it.. whether one moves a chart 1 degree a day, month or year - one is doing something similar... i look forward to any comments on erdogan you would like to make! thanks..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recep_Tayyip_Erdo%C4%9Fan

I do understand you James. I was just trying to clarify that the direction method I was using was not following the motion of the sun hence why I called it "symbolic" because solar arcs do partially give a nod to astronomical reality and give a different result to the one degree method I use.
However yes all these different directional methods are symbolic but henceforth I will use the term "one degree method" to be clear.

Now to Erdogan and Turkey :-


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I have put up both Erdogan's chart and the mundane chart in WS houses.
I have used the time given on Astrodienst for Erdogan even though it is a C rating. However I am of the opinion that the asc. sign of Capricorn is probably right. My reason for saying this is because Mars rises before the asc. on the star Antares - a very aggressive, military star. Mars is his planet I think and conjoining his Lord 7 of course. They both oppose Jupiter on Rigel in Orion further emphasising the fighting warrior of this man (even if he gets others to fight for him!).
Mercury ruling that Jupiter is afflicted in Pisces conjoining Venus in the 3rd and squares Mars/Moon - untrustworthy. Also the antiscion of Neptune is conjoining Mercury - deception.
The correspondences between him and the Turkey mundane chart and his own are obvious. Leaders always have such connections (I have seen them with the US presidents for instance). Most significant is his Mars/Moon squaring the mundane nodes. The transiting nodes, as I said before will be conjoining the mundane nodes in November and thus emphasising his connection also.

See also how by one degree method the Mars/Moon conj. in Erdogan's chart directs to square Saturn and the Sun Lord 8 directs therefore to oppose Saturn Lord 1 this year.

Note also that the Pisces house directs to the 12th in the mundane chart and the Scorpio house to the 8th.

I can observe events but cannot really interpret what they might mean in a mundane chart. The nodal effect does seem to have most significance this year.

I will finish by saying that Erdogan's Mercury (Lord 6)directs to square Pluto in the 8th around age 70 that would indicate some major health event and even death because Mercury then aspects Neptune. The Sun Lord 8 directs to oppose the MC (depending on the exact degree of course)
having already opposed his Saturn this year. Is he in danger? He was in danger over the coup this year, I suppose, which nearly succeeded.

Note the cardinal houses in his chart and how this significant cross is being emphasised by the transits of Pluto and Uranus.

James_M wrote:

solar arc is a type of symbolic arc... whether one uses 1 degree or 59.. whatever minutes - you get the idea... they are all 'symbolic' directions, as i understand it.. whether one moves a chart 1 degree a day, month or year

Thanks James I had planned to make the same point to Vicki. The 1 degree per year system was originally used by the English astrologers Sepharial, Vivian Robson and later by Charles Carter. They actually called it 'The radix system'.

It might be said that the radix system is a form of mean or averaged solar arcs since its averages out the the Sun's movement across the whole year. The more commonly used solar arcs are based on the actual or true motion of the Sun.This effects the calculation of the rate of solar arc since the Sun's motion is faster in a winter birth (northern hemisphere) than a summer birth. Hence a Summer born person or chart will move at a slower rate of solar arc. This is picking up the astronomical fact that the earth moves more quickly in its orbit around the Sun during winter (northern hemisphere) than during the summer. The earth is also a bit closer to the sun in the winter. It forms its annual perihelion to the Sun in early January.

http://www.space.com/3304-earth-closest ... inter.html

Mark

thanks for the additional comments vicki and mark,

funny thing is if you look at the rate of speed for erdogans sun movement - since he is born close to the equinox - rate of speed is exactly 1 degree vicki... so, solar arc and 1 degree per year work are the same here!!!

vicki - not sure about the 425am time for erdogan.. i have seen it.. what it does is emphasize the nodal axis in his chart.. if that time is correct, he is going to become even more paranoid and fanatical then he already is thanks pluto transit to the conjunction of uranus/opposition to ascendant degree.. in that sense, maybe the chart works! i continue to believe - without much to substantiate it concretely - that he is in a very dangerous place.. turkey is at the crossroads of so much internationally with regard to the middle east.. one wrong step and turkey is in trouble.. is erdogan authoritarian? i think so.. that fits with a simplistic read of cap rising and saturn on the midheaven.. the fanatical part is the moon/mars conjunction in sag that just might be the driver for it.. maybe that is the Achilles heel or 12th house blind spot he's oblivious to..

i wish there were a few turkish astrologers around who had some more poignant insights into erdogans chart.. as an outsider, it is hard for me to know how far off i am in all the reading i have done on him and turkey to date.. regardless of the time of erdogans birth, the day chart connects strongly to the 1923 chart for turkey..

this today from one of turkeys news outlets -
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/chp-we ... sCatID=338