Mark wrote:Waybread the links above to the Sibly and US Constitution chart are incorrect and just show Clinton's chart again.

.....

Mark

Mark, I went back to check on the US founding event charts, and turns out that there are 14 of them listed in the Astrodienst Astro-DataBank. Rather than link all of them here, I would suggest that interested people simply go to www.astro.com, log in, head back to the home page, click on Astro-DataBank, and then search for "Nation: USA." If you do that, then you have the option of saving the charts for further prognostications. The date is usually pegged to or just before the signing of the Declaration of Independence.

I thought there was only one Sibly chart (earliest known event chart for the establishment of the USA.) But it turns out his time is in dispute. Then subsequent astrologers have looked to earlier events.

I might point out for non-Americans that the Declaration of 1776 merely announces independence from Britain. The actual structure of the US government, with the president, VP, and two houses of Congress, was formalized in the Constitution, after the conclusion of the war for independence.

Numbers 9 and 5 deal with the Constitution. The Constitution was signed by its interim legislators in 1787, put to the states for votes, and then enacted into law when New Hampshire became the 13th state to ratify it on June 21, 1788.

This all makes selecting the national chart most relevant to predicting an election outcome a complicated and somewhat subjective matter.

There is some interesting texts with these charts, for those who like to combine astrology and history.

Waybread wrote:

Mark, I went back to check on the US founding event charts, and turns out that there are 14 of them listed in the Astrodienst Astro-DataBank. Rather than link all of them here, I would suggest that interested people simply go to www.astro.com, log in, head back to the home page, click on Astro-DataBank, and then search for "Nation: USA." If you do that, then you have the option of saving the charts for further prognostications. The date is usually pegged to or just before the signing of the Declaration of Independence.

I thought there was only one Sibly chart (earliest known event chart for the establishment of the USA.) But it turns out his time is in dispute. Then subsequent astrologers have looked to earlier events.

No need for people to knock themselves out googling ADB Waybread! I put together a locked thread a couple of years ago that listed all the potential charts for the USA with links to ADB. I also listed some potential charts ADB omits.

And yes you can derive a 04.50pm, 5.10pm or 12.10pm chart from Sibly's data!

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... highlight=

Mark

waybread wrote: This all makes selecting the national chart most relevant to predicting an election outcome a complicated and somewhat subjective matter.

thanks waybread.. good to know choosing from either a list of 14 usa charts (on adb), or a list of 27 thanks marks work on skyscript is a necessary requirement to get a firm leg up on a prediction!! the operative word here is 'firm' lol.. if saturn gets in my way, it will be infirm!

here i was worried about choosing from 1 out of approx 5 or 6 potential hillary clinton times, only to find out i have to sift thru another potential 27 charts to gain the confidence necessary to open my big fat mouth, lol... i'm just looking for a little comedy to make this rectification and prediction business more enjoyable and rewarding.. you've provided it!

i think the only thing missing in my toolbox is having to figure out if i need to look at these charts in tropical or sidereal.. this might tip the balance or leave me hanging!!

LOL, james_m.

Generally, I think you should just pick the chart/s that make/s the most sense to you. If it's the Aries ingress chart, that sure simplifies your life. But a brief stroll through early American history wouldn't harm any of us.

You might learn something.

Waybread, it's truly striking how the asteroids Whitehouse and Hillary fall on Hillary's MC/IC axis for both the AM and PM times. But this is no help in rectification because the contacts are the same with flipped angles. Here's how it looks (Krishnamurti, but the tropical flip orbs would be exactly the same):

Asteroid Hillary
13 Leo 00
12 Leo 06 MC (8:02 AM)
12 Leo 30 IC (8:01:30 PM)

Asteroid Whitehouse
12 Aqu 34
12 Aqu 06 IC (8:02 AM)
12 Aqu 30 MC (8:01:30 PM)

So it's a matter of preference whether we place Asteroids Hillary and Whitehouse on the MC or IC. The good news is that we seem to have the correct angles!! The bad news is that this doesn't necessarily help in deciding if the birth is AM or PM.

I do think it's amazing, however, that these two asteroids fall on the angles in Hillary's chart, but since Hillary has already spent 8 years in the White House as First Lady, this may not be helpful in predicting the 2016 election results. But I do have a new appreciation for asteroids which I have ignored until now. (Converting from Fagan-Bradley to K was a quick mental process.) Thanks so much for finding these asteroids for us!

Waybread wrote:

Clinton broke her elbow in a fall on June 17, 2009.

On that date she had transiting:

Uranus at 26 Pisces 32' conjunct natal moon (4 degree orb) and square natal Uranus (within 1 degree orb.)

Waybread, since I tend to get confused looking at both the tropical and sidereal charts, may I ask for the tropical position of natal Uranus?

Sun partile conjunct natal Uranus.

This I have worked out in an earlier post:

25 Gem 55 Uranus natal tropical (AM time 56' R)
26 Gem 47 Sun transit tropical (orb 52')

2 Gem 53 Uranus natal sidereal K
2 Gem 48 Sun transit sidereal (orb 5')

On that date she had progressed:

moon partile conjunct natal Uranus.

I don't usually use progressions, but can you give the progressed Moon position?

Mars conjunct MC (1.5 degree orb)

Chiron conjunct Mercury (1 degree orb)

Mars conj. MC: This is progressed Mars, right?

Is Chiron also the progressed position? Since we're being technical here, it would help to align planets and degrees as I've done above for Sun-Uranus. That way it's easier to get a quick visual picture. (use "P" for progressed, etc.) I can easily read the tropical positions as long as they are lined up with the degrees first as I did above.

James wrote:

I think the only thing missing in my toolbox is having to figure out if i need to look at these charts in tropical or sidereal.. this might tip the balance or leave me hanging!!

If you are using solar return charts and/or transits, this is actually a critical question. The USA 1776 sidereal solar return now occurs on July 8 rather than July 4. Right now I'm tying in a few past presidents' natal chart with the USA solar returns as an experiment. I think I did this back in the Bush days, but I forget what the results were.

The current 6:30 PM USA sidereal solar return chart (to be explained in another post) has the Moon at 12 Leo 51. Depending on the AM or PM chart for Hillary, that is the degree of her MC or IC. (The tropical return Moon would be very different.)

Here is the link to the post on this forum that explains the 6:30 PM (18:30) USA chart for July 4, 1776.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 9696#99696

With the 18:30 time Sagittarius rises in both the tropical and sidereal charts, so house rulerships are the same.

Therese Hamilton wrote:Waybread wrote:

Clinton broke her elbow in a fall on June 17, 2009.

On that date she had transiting:

Uranus at 26 Pisces 32' conjunct natal moon (4 degree orb) and square natal Uranus (within 1 degree orb.)

Waybread, since I tend to get confused looking at both the tropical and sidereal charts, may I ask for the tropical position of natal Uranus?

Clinton's natal tropical:

Uranus=25 Gemini 55' 44" retrograde

.....

On that date she had progressed:

moon partile conjunct natal Uranus.

I don't usually use progressions, but can you give the progressed Moon position?

All of my degrees are in the western tropical zodiac.

Astrodienst doesn't allow inputting the time of interest on a progressed chart. I haven't checked, but would guess it's a noon default time. Possibly for that reason, they don't peg the degrees for progressions down to the seconds. With slow moving planets it wouldn't make much difference. I thought the progressed moon might have some merit in rectifying Clinton's chart, though I can't say how much. Her progressed moon on June 17, 2009 (date of breaking her elbow):

p moon 25 Gemini 54'

Mars conjunct MC (1.5 degree orb)

Chiron conjunct Mercury (1 degree orb)
Mars conj. MC: This is progressed Mars, right?

Is Chiron also the progressed position? Since we're being technical here, it would help to align planets and degrees as I've done above for Sun-Uranus. That way it's easier to get a quick visual picture. (use "P" for progressed, etc.) I can easily read the tropical positions as long as they are lined up with the degrees first as I did above.

P Mars 6 Virgo 41 (natal MC 5 Virgo 7' 11")

P Chiron 20 Scorpio 21' (natal Mercury 21 Scorpio 41' )

This is also a partile trine to Clinton's natal:

Saturn at 21 Leo 18' 35.

I mention this because Saturn generically rules the bones. Not sure why a broken bone should be a trine, though.

Therese Hamilton wrote:

Here is the link to the post on this forum that explains the 6:30 PM (18:30) USA chart for July 4, 1776.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 9696#99696

With the 18:30 time Sagittarius rises in both the tropical and sidereal charts, so house rulerships are the same.

I am quite sceptical how far using a chart for 4th July 1776 gets us in terms of rectifying a chart for Clinton. I would make the following points to everyone here.

1 There are a wide variety of chart times used by both tropical and sidereal astrologers for july 4th 1776. So trying to combine a speculative chart for the USA with a speculative chart time for Clinton seems a questionable astrological approach at best.

The sidereal astrologer Ken Bowser has been researching this topic extensively and has just written a book arguing that the real time for the Sibly chart should be 12.16pm. He has tested out this chart with primary directions which obviously work the same in any zodiac. Bowser's view finds some support in the writings of late 19th/early 20th century astrologer John Hazelrigg who used a tropical Libra rising chart for the USA timed for 12.15pm.

2 Clinton hasn't been elected President yet. So we may not find any really strong connections to the US chart.

3 While the 4th of July has an iconic status in American culture celebrating the signing of the Declaration of Independence the political reality is that the Continental Congress voted for independence from Great Britain on July 2nd 1776 not July 4th. Many contemporary commentators thought this vote would be a decisive date celebrated by later generations. Some astrologers make the case the real 'birth' of the USA begins on July 2nd not the 4th.

4 There are many charts possible for the USA. Some of them might be more appropriate for comparing to presidential candidates wanting to be President than a chart for 1776. In particular charts for the commencement of the US constitution (4th March 1789) and the so called POTUS chart for the inauguration of the first President George Washington (30th April 1789).

Mark

Thank you, Waybread for taking the time to note planetary positions. Since I've used Indian dasas and solar returns for many years, I have hardly ever used western progressions. So those positions help to put it in perspective in my mind. Thanks again!

Here's one thought: If P Mars conjoins the natal MC (AM), but this is possibly the IC (PM), and the accident happened in the basement of the State Department building, I would think that symbolically a fall in the basement might suit the IC in the 4th better.

The precision of P Moon to natal Uranus, P Saturn to natal Mercury is striking.

Mark wrote:

There are a wide variety of chart times used by both tropical and sidereal astrologers for july 4th 1776. So trying to combine a speculative chart for the USA with a speculative chart time for Clinton seems a questionable astrological approach at best.

The only way to get a definitive answer to anything is to test it out. In the case of any USA chart, testing would have to be done with past presidents who have verified birth times. But I thought it was important to introduce another Sagittarius rising chart to add to the mix, as this is a popular chart in the Jyotish community.

As I've said in the past, I haven't worked much with mundane astrology, and that includes presidential elections. But the controversy on Hillary Clinton's birth time has caught my interest.