Hi Mark,

I can see why Patrick Watson might feel that way as he wrote a fairly long article a few months ago that you shared here at skyscript, researching the 2 birth times - 8 am/pm and favoured the 8am time... everything he is saying I relate to, but I think some of it is coming out of the possibility Penfields data (valid or not) turning patricks rectification into another wrecktification.. hey - is he from the school of noel tyl? LOLOL...

Either way folks are putting the kibosh on Penfield for good reason..

http://www.patrickwatsonastrologer.com/ ... irth-time/

I would just like to add how hard it is to rectify a chart, but the first requirement is a detachment that I don't pick up in some astrologers who think they are capable of doing this.. I am not referring to patrick here, but speaking generally on the process of what has always been considered the hardest skill to master - rectification... this is why i jokingly refer to most of it and them as wrecktifications.. without a detached and neutral mind - a rare quality in itself - it is close to impossible..

According to Marc Penfield, the Hillary Clinton data and sources will be published in the next ISAR online newsletter (probably Monday, October 3rd)

Mark

Whatever data Marc Penfield releases and whenever he does, I will not believe him or anyone else for that matter.
Times haven?t changed since the days of Vettius Valens when he complained that fellow astrologers jealously guarded astrological lore, shrouded in mystery.
A sort of astrological oneupmanship.

I am very suspicious and echo Zoidsoft?s comments. Someone may well have an interest in disseminating disinformation about Hillary Clinton?s birth time.

As for rectification, James is right about many astrologers? inability to be detached and impartial. It is possible to prove anything you want to set out to prove ? scientists do it all the time ! Rectification is a very inexact process.

We will never know the truth about Hillary Clinton?s birth time this side of paradise and that goes for anyone?s chart ? (leastways not to the exact minute).

?And what you do not know is the only thing you know?
T.S.Eliot ?East Coker?

My instincts agree with what a lot of you people are saying. Also I like Frank Clifford, I have some of his books and he is amazing for getting back to you immediately with knowledgeable answers if you ask him questions. I have never known him to hold back information. I think if Frank was the person with access to Hillary Clinton's birth certificate he would just release the chart immediately to the astrological community, he doesn't seem the type of person to hog information.

Marc wrote:

According to Marc Penfield, the Hillary Clinton data and sources will be published in the next ISAR online newsletter (probably Monday, October 3rd)

I receive that newsletter, and will post a quote here as soon as the newsletter comes into my mailbox. I wouldn't be too hard on Marc. He's an elder and deserves respect. He's almost 74 years old now, and (speaking from experience) sometimes older minds run in strange channels. Thinking processes age along with everything else. I was raised with the Asian attitude: Age deserves respect no matter how bizarre a person's behavior may be.

I continue to be amazed at the elderly years of our US presidential candidates this year. How many of Donald Trump's extreme comments are due to his age? Bernie Sanders is several years over 70, Donald Trump just turned 70, and Hillary will turn 70 next year. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Tim Kaine assuming presidential duties sometime during Hillary's term (health problems or simply exhaustion?), assuming she will be elected.

To be completely clear - Like everyone else I just want this issue to be resolved so we can work with accurate data. I called Marc Penfield kind of a jerk for wanting to hold on to a purportedly verified time for a couple more weeks from the public and his fellow panelists. Now that he has decided to disclose early, I rescind my insult. If it is the 2:18 am time first given to us by Zayin Cohen, then I have serious doubts that it has gotten us any closer to the real time.

The reason I went as far as I did to call out this behavior is because this is so important to the global community of astrologers. That's why I went out and got the birth times of the vice presidential candidates. That's why I published them as soon as I got them. That's why this news with Marc bothered me so much.

As far as my stake in it - I am absolutely prepared to accept if my attempt at deciding between 8 am or 8 pm is wrong. I decided that the moment I took a position on it. If a verified birth time proves I am wrong, I will embrace it, and it will be a smudge on what reputation I have.

As it is - what credible evidence we have seems to stack up in favor of 8 pm - with Hillary's most recent quotes being consistently 8 pm, and presuming Lynn Sweet understood it correctly, she was born after a 12 hour labor that started in the morning, suggesting a pm time. There are other astrologers like Nick Dagan Best who have plausible astrological rationales for 8 pm as well.

There will soon be an article appearing in the Wall Street Journal about Hillary's birth time - hopefully it will give Mrs. Clinton a nudge toward releasing her birth certificate, but she probably won't.

Patrick Watson wrote:

As it is - what credible evidence we have seems to stack up in favor of 8 pm - with Hillary's most recent quotes being consistently 8 pm, and presuming Lynn Sweet understood it correctly, she was born after a 12 hour labor that started in the morning, suggesting a pm time. There are other astrologers like Nick Dagan Best who have plausible astrological rationales for 8 pm as well.

Is there a link to this information? This is the first I've heard of recent quotes for 8 PM (which is the time I have used) and the quote from Lynn Sweet.

Chris Brennan asked her at a 'Hard Choices' book signing event a couple of years ago. She said "I think...it was 8 pm".

However, she has responded differently in the past. She seemed to emphasize "I think", as in perhaps she's not quite sure. We. Need. The. Birth. Certificate.

Patrick Watson wrote:

...and presuming Lynn Sweet understood it correctly, she was born after a 12 hour labor that started in the morning, suggesting a pm time.

Where/when did this come from? Who is Lynn Sweet? I'm only trying to get the facts, not trying to be challenging since I like the PM time myself, at least for the time being.

Patrick Watson wrote:

If it is the 2:18 am time first given to us by Zayin Cohen, then I have serious doubts that it has gotten us any closer to the real time.

I got back in touch with Zayin Cohen. He said as you annoyed him probing for a copy of the birth certificate and the official he got it from he decided to ''get rid of you'' by giving you an incorrect time. Hence he states the 01.18am time you were given by is not correct. He informs me he is working with the 02.08am time which is correct. His astrological FB posts support that.

Its obviously a bizarre thing to do. Why not ''get rid of you'' with the correct data?

However, it will be interesting to see what time Penfield comes up with.

If its 02.08am it will corroborate what Zayin Cohen is saying. If its 02.18am I will still have my doubts. Still, considering his reputation why would he risk ruining that with false data?

Mark

I currently lean toward a time shortly after 8 am with Scorpio rising as fitting the chronology better than any other I've seen so far. I haven't checked all possible combinations for that day, but the 2:08 am time is achrematistikos for the zodiacal releasing method.