Charts that are not radical do not perform well

Have you actually looked at them? The concept of radicality does not apply to natal charts; event chart is the same. It's a birth chart of an event.

Gem, my work in this field is on net at http://www.astronor.com/hours.htm Here I present some aphorisms on relationships between the radical ascendant, it's ruler and the lord of the hour here, which I have found to be valuable in judgement.

Andrew says:
12) Nothing can be performed without the assistance of the lord of the hour. If there is no relation between the lord of the hour and the sign ascending or its lord, the chart shows something out of tune and not working properly. It is like striking a dumb note on the celestial instrument. The querent may not have had a serious intention of proposing the question. According to the ancient stricture, the astrologer is more liable to plunge himself into difficulties and should examine whether the querent has the correct reasons for asking the question. An irregularity is in existence and the rules are not being followed. There could be a disturbing circumstance and the matter leads to unhappiness or unacceptance.

Generally, I try to work my way around strictures and integrate them into interpretation. Sometimes, when observing the moment, it is difficult to distinguish between the horary and the event chart.

I don't think our football group has reached any certainity in our football predictions yet, or I may just be speaking for myself. But I try to ask whether we can explain this through astrology and sort out the charts that are absolutely certain. Why should anyone want to put any money on something that can't be trusted? I feel it would be my judgement as a practitioner to be able to distinguish between the 'good' and 'bad' moments.

Interesting that you allocated the Asc to different teams though...

Spooky! One of us must be wrong!

I'd say it's a case of both of you being right. Many roads lead to Rome and all that

Ficina, how come you didn't get it right this weekend? You've got Frawley's book haven't you? What should we be looking for?

I often get it wrong, Andrew, but it bothers me much less than it used to. We can't expect to get it right all the time. As JF says, "That we can predict anything at all is a marvel".

Also important to bear the eminence effect in mind when using any of JF's methods, for example antisicion PoF. He states quite clearly that his method works best for finals and less well for run of the mill games.

And I agree with Gem regarding radicality. It applies to horary but not events.

Why should anyone want to put any money on something that can't be trusted?

Can any predictive method be trusted totally? I remember reading somewhere that sports tipsters are generally less than 50% successful in their predictions.

I have read Lilly and know how to test the radicality of Horary chart.
I don`t see any difficulty in distinguishing between Horary and football event chart as we obviously have kickoff time.

As JF says, "That we can predict anything at all is a marvel".

Well, what's the point then? This statement makes me unhappy and I don't know why he says it. It does not agree with my reasons for becoming an astrologer, or my experience as one. In a football match there are 3 alternatives; a Home win, a Draw, an Away win. The odds say something about the teams previous performances and the expectations of the public. Does astrology have any part in this? I would certainly not be writing books on astrology if everything I said was wrong half the time. Nor would I be astounded when ever it made sense. JF is in this because it gives him power and the ability to predict or resolve. Any thing else makes no sense.

I'd say it's a case of both of you being right. Many roads lead to Rome and all that

I don't recall Sunderland playing both ways. One of the teams were Portsmouth. My feeling was that Portsmouth is a better team, but my judgement went in favour of Sunderland. Was Sunderland both the ascendant and the descendant. Sorry, I'm lost!

Also important to bear the eminence effect in mind when using any of JF's methods, for example antisicion PoF. He states quite clearly that his method works best for finals and less well for run of the mill games.

This makes perfect sense. That means that the cup finals can be predicted without a doubt. I thought he said that astrology worked for the Premier League, but not the lower leagues. I'm obviously getting into a muddle again. Which matches 'can' be predicted and which matches 'cannot'?

Can any predictive method be trusted totally?

I conceive astrology as a tool to prognosis, which allows one to attain a diagnosis, which leads to an assessment of the most optimal course of action. In my opinion astrology may be used as a tool of strategy - to find out which approach will lead to the best result. In matters of 'fate', 'balance' or regarding the destiny of 'sleepwalkers', I assume as astrology to decribe whatever is lay in the path - and from this it should be possible to determine the outfall of questions at hand.

I'm having a great time playing around with the enthusiasm for astrology, sports and gaming, that will all share on the forum - but I would like it to all add up at the end of the day. One goal in an ice-hockey match separated me from succeeding with a mulitple bet of 6 games yesterday. (My team won after extra play and a penalty fight-out, but the full time result was a draw )(The Moon was applying square Pluto) . For the 2 football games I consulted astrology - for the 4 ice-hockey games I used my knowledge of the league and team strengths. Astrology should give us that extra edge, even it means determining the terms for which within this 'extra edge' may be found.

Ficina, by all means, I am not having a get at you! (or you Gem!) I think you are both wonderful! But I I am trying to state what I want for my astrology.

I love these kind of discussions

As JF says, "That we can predict anything at all is a marvel".

Well, what's the point then? This statement makes me unhappy and I don't know why he says it. It does not agree with my reasons for becoming an astrologer, or my experience as one.

That's fine because we can only speak from our own experience. I think JF's statement was in part a reality check (particularly in the context of where he wrote it in the book) and also an expression of his underlying humility which isn't necessarily apparent in his writing and public speaking

Was Sunderland both the ascendant and the descendant.

It depends how you allocate the Asc. Sunderland were the home team, yet Portsmouth were the faves and their colours fitted the Asc. Your analysis, Andrew, favoured the Asc which you allocated to Sunderland (home team), whereas John's analysis favoured the Desc which he allocated to Sunderland (underdogs and colours).

I thought he said that astrology worked for the Premier League, but not the lower leagues.

No, it was me that said that from my own experience and observation. It's a kind of continuation of the eminence effect.

And yeah, I think we're all wonderful too

Yes I think you`re wonderful too, Andrew

I've had a look at the Crewe/Leeds chart. Away team are faves so who gets the Asc? Crewe wear red shirts/white shorts. Leeds wear white but will they wear their away strip, yellow? I'm pretty hopeless on colour assignment but I'd have thought Jupiter=red, Mercury=white. Does that sound right? If so, then Leeds get the Asc.

Anyway, there are some antiscial testimonies Moon sextile anti-PoF favours the favourites. Moon square anti-Venus (L10), and anti-Mercury (L1) conj IC are both minor testimonies for the Asc team, whoever they are!

So we don't agree upon who is who and offer different arguments, where you are in favour of the ascendant and I am cheering for the descendant. Gee wizz... doesn't this stay interesting. Hope to see you in Rome!

Well this has become interesting.

You've all missed the most obvious reason why I picked the winner- beginners luck!

I agree with Andrew, my interest in this is to have a diagnosis and assessment and so to have an edge.

It's just a matter of working out what the edge is.

With regard to Liverpool/Luton, aren't Totteham/Reading starting at the same time?

On to the Ascendant/Descendant and Portsmouth/Sunderland.
May be different roads lead to the same destination.

Does Andrew default the Ascendant to the home team each time?

Andrew went with Receptions and Terms, whilst I went with aspects.

I think this game gave us the question, what is the primary issue to consider? Part of it is Asc/Des but I'm more interested to know whether I should be looking at aspects and then receptions/terms to support it, or to focus on terms/receptions and then look for supporting aspects.

I didn't go down the Mer/Sat mutual reception, as Sat was ruler of several houses(placidus) and it was neither Lord of 1/7 or had any dignity with the moon.

I'm sticking with the ManC/WHU game.

If the favourite is the away team, why bother to give the ascendant to the favourite if the descendant is sufficiently dignified?

I am also wondering, while the Part of Fortune may show the favourites by odds, would not the Part of Spirit show the publics pets or favourites by heroism?

I give POF by day and POS by night to the favourite by default.

I got a bit fed up with all the uncertainities of football prediction so I put ?50 on Leeds beating Crew at the odds 1.85:1
Then I made a multiple bet of ?20 on this game together with Le Havre winning their away game this evening against Brest in France. Total odds 4,4:1.

Leeds won their game 0-1
Le Havre won their game 0-2

That puts me up about ?100,- on one evening and that feels more like a statement!