Since there is only a little time left, I?ll give some feedback on the last few suggestions regarding timing. There are some strong factors in these charts, but none have hit the right moment.

Goca, using the chart that you suggested as an event for a mortal crash: note that, by transit, there is no hard contact to the angles. I would expect to see a malefic planet close to an angle at the time of the crash, and that it would also bring a destructive element of the birth chart to an angle.

That seems to be the same problem with your chart Matt (although I?m a bit confused by your time zone ? the one in use at the time was AEST: -10hrs, so I?m not exactly sure if I am seeing the chart that you intended)

Martine and Eddy ? although the times you suggested have Neptune on the ascendant or desc, again there is no contact between the angles of the event chart, and the key destructive planets of the birth chart.

Bob, your reasoning is strong, because you have the transiting Mars-Saturn conjunction rising (opposite the Pluto-South Node conjunction on the descendant), and that time also brings the natal Saturn to the midheaven. You didn?t get this right I?m afraid, but something along these lines does occur in the actual event chart. You might have forgotten that I said there was an exact alignment with the natal Moon at the time of the accident, which I don?t see in your chart. That should narrow down the options for this - otherwise it really will be like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Regards
Deb

Hi Aquastella

I noticed that you proposed this date, and a time quite close to this, about 8 days ago. But why would you opt for a time when the Moon is practically on the 9th house cusp?

Sorry to cause confusion but it was 21:30 on friday when I posted and the only star I was concerned with was Stella Artois.

It should read 22:15 local time 12th May

Matt

...Stella Artois

Well, in any event, that's wrong.

Hi Deb,

You asked:

I noticed that you proposed this date, and a time quite close to this, about 8 days ago. But why would you opt for a time when the Moon is practically on the 9th house cusp?

1. It is almost the exact time of the lunar return (perfect alignment of Moon with natal Moon).
2. Event Moon is actually in the 8th house, because cusp of 9th is in the next sign, so 5 deg rule does not apply (at least according to J. Frawley).
3. The transit Saturn (natal l8 ) conjunct natal Sun (major killer transit) sits right on the event chart desc (angular). In the diurnal chart for birthplace it sits on the Asc.
4. The cusp of 3rd house of short journeys in the event chart is right on the cusp of natal 8th house.
5. Jupiter (exalted and jovial) lord H1 (perpetrator in event charts) is on the cusp of the event 8th house.
6. Midpoint trees for the event chart describe an accident born out of a "Neptunial" mental state (As/Mc = Saturn/Neptune , As = Saturn, Mc = Neptune). There's an exact 8th harmonic aspect between Mc and Neptune.
It might also suggest "The minute of a mysterious event". Note the reloctaed natal chart has Neptune in Scorpio on Asc in Weipa.

A posting with detailed midpoint trees will follow.

Of course, I could be wrong, but that's my guess.

On the subject of PD's I came upon something in a work by Gadbury where he says something like This type of work is rarely undertaken by the astrologer as the client is reluctant to pay for all the work involoved

You are making us do this for nothing!!!

regards

Matt

With the new year primary directed (1?RA =1 year) MC of 2002 is about 1? before square to natal Moon. Is this too early to count for this event or could it mean that the accident already fell under the sphere of this direction?

Midpoint trees (90 deg dial) for:
Accident
20 April 2002
about 9:00 Pm local time (gmt+10)
Weipa Aus

Su=Pl/As=Pl/Sa=Ma/Ne=No/As = No/Sa
Dispute, Injury, Accident, ruthless conduct with regard to people in one's environment.
Undermining of the health, dissolution of the body.
Contact with a man.
Separation.

Mo = Su/Sa = Mc/Ne = Pl/As
Separation, bereavement.
A misinterpretation of observations and perceptions.
A strong emotional response coming from the environment.

Me = Su/Ur = Ne/No = Ju/No
Accident. Misconceptions about an association. sociableness.

Ve = Sa/No = Mo/Pl = Mc/Me = Su/Pl
Separation in partnership. Strong powers of feelings. Emotional upset, targic partnership.

Ma = Mo/Ju = Su/Ve = Su/Ju = Me/Ne = As/Ur
Cheerfulness, Pleasure seeking, Zeal and eagerness, courage, acting without clarity, Sudden accident .

Ju = Mo/No = Me/Ma = Su/No
Happy teamwork, Sound criticism, Good emotional contact.

As = Sa = Ur/Ne
A painful loss. A confused psychic state.

Ur = Su/Ne = As/Me = Me/Sa = Mc/Ve
A Sudden upset or excitement. Quarreling with others. A car ride. Haste. Quick departure. Amorous excitability.

Mc = Ne = Ve/Sa = As/Ju = Ju/Sa
The moment of separation in friendship caused by wrong ideas. Speculation. Loss. Damage through dampness, water, gas or force majeur.

Pl = Me/Ur = Su/No
A hasty realization of plans. Over stimulated nerves. The urge to use compulsion with others.

No = Ju/Ur = Ne/As = Sa/Ne
Showing oneself cheerful and happy in the presence of others. Sharing happiness with a partner. An accessory to wrong actions. Common or joint suffering.

BTW, isn't Stella Artois in Pisces (Mouth of the fish)?

Hi Aquastella

Although we are day or so early, I don?t want to waste anyone?s time, and I think it is appropriate now to conclude this and give you the acknowledgement that you actually deserved a while back. You are extremely close, and the date and time lies between the one you submitted earlier (11:pm) and this. (Later edit: actually, she submitted 11:02 AM GMT, which equals 9:02 PM AEST)

You are within 30 minutes of the event, but it occurred a little later with the Moon more firmly in the 8th house and Saturn just under the degree of the descendant (I don?t agree with JF?s suggestion regarding the 5? rule but that?s pretty irrelevant here). The fact that you were able to identify this time, from the few pointers and astrological clues I gave at the time, is pretty remarkable. You did very well indeed. This one example proves nothing, but it suggests a great deal about the importance of cosmic triggers in our lives.

For the rest of this post I am going to let the charts speak for themselves. The one below shows the event chart for the time of the accident ? 20 minutes later than the time you proposed:
Below we have the biwheel for the time of birth and death together, centred upon the angles of the birth chart. Below that we have the same biwheel swapped over, (centred on the time of the accident), and including the positions of the outer planets too. Although I personally think the out planet contacts were very significant, it is worth noting the strong focus of the purely traditional planets.

One point that I find of interest is that the accident occurred on the second nodal return ? the birth chart featured a grand cross, if we include the nodal axis: which puts the South Node in opposition to the Sun, in square to the Mars-Saturn opposition. This first bi-wheel brings out the possible importance of that, and alerts us to the connection between this chart and the upcoming eclipse (a total solar eclipse which had Saturn conjunct the Sun and Moon at 18 Gemini).

Below we have the solar return for 2001 and for 2002. These are unrelocated and not precessed ? others might find better arguments and closer alignments, but I think that these charts are quite persuasive in themselves.
I am short of time today, but if anyone wants to add more charts or comments, please do.

And thank you to Aquastella and everyone else for making this all so interesting and useful!
Deb


PS - Eddy, maybe someone else can now answer your question?

Deb wrote:Although we are day or so early, I don?t want to waste anyone?s time, and I think it is appropriate now to conclude this and give you the acknowledgement that you actually deserved a while back. You are extremely close, and the date and time lies between the one you submitted earlier (11:pm) and this.

I agree with Deb that AquaStella's timing is very impressive -- in fact even more impressive than you noted, Deb, as the time first submitted was 11:02 AM GMT, which equals 21:02 (9:02 PM) AEST.

I will post on the relevant primary directions separately.

I wasn't able to participate in the latter part of this exercise, as Deb wanted to consult me over a particular primary direction (more on this below), which necessitated her revealing the date of death to me. I don't think I would have got the exact date anyway (or at least not without that hint about the Moon), but once the year was confirmed I would probably have come fairly close with the help of the Saturn-Sun transit... I think.

My original post said:

The Sun reached the square of the malefics in very early childhood, and then their trine/sextile around 37-38 (or, by converse motion, around 20-22). The latter hits fall in the appropriate time-frame, but would they really kill even if the Sun were hyleg (which I do have trouble accepting)? Perhaps they would, given the natal square.

I am still not very comfortable with the Sun as hyleg in this chart, but at least I am glad to see that there was a direction to one of the hylegiacal points around the time of death, which occurred shortly before age 37. The importance of the Sun seems to be borne out by the transits at death. I will have to think more about its implications for the method of selecting the hyleg.

My second post was more experimental, and frankly I'm relieved the Worsdale approach didn't prove correct (though I did try to do the thing properly). But as Saturn and Mars are still the joint anaeretas, the rule I quoted from Ptolemy is still relevant:

For Saturn square or opposite Mars, Ptolemy particularly mentions death 'by being caught in the collapse of a house; and if they are in midheaven, above or below the earth, by a fall from a height'. He also states that when both malefics work together to cause death, such natives 'are even left without burial, and are consumed by wild beasts or birds' -- which agrees with what we know about the body not being retrieved.

In hindsight, I do think there is a third relevant direction to the Sun around the relevant time, namely, Sun to the square of the Moon (by 'converse motion' in the traditional sense). Lilly states that this makes the native 'unhappy in his travel', and it is easy to see how it might indicate danger from water. (I am deliberately not giving exact dates here, both because of the many variables involved and because I don't believe that is how directions work.)

Finally, Deb asked me about another direction occurring around the time of death, one of which I had not taken account because it was of a kind not used by most classical authorities. It involves taking the natal rising degree and moving it with the primary motion to the aspects of the planets, as though it were still connected to the ascendant. Those who followed this practice (ar-Rij?l/Abenragel and Morin among them) called it the 'converse direction of the ascendant'; others asserted that there can be no such direction, as the ascendant is necessarily part of the immovable circle of the horizon. If the practice is accepted, the ascendant would be directed 'conversely' to the square of Mars around the time of death, followed by the square of Saturn. I can't say whether this is just a fluke or something more meaningful; but I will certainly keep an eye out for this sort of direction in future.