Hello Dracon,

As you will have noticed I am not a great fan of the decans or face. For one thing it was originally based on fixed stars ( the Egyptian decans) not planets. Secondly we have different system of decans with some based on signs rather than planets. Thirdly, its always been acknowledged as a weak dignity. So much so that is is dropped altogether by some medieval astrologers. In practical terms I seldom notice any discernable difference between a face ruler and peregrine planet.

As for physical description I prefer the terms (bounds) as Lilly did to decans. These are more personalised than the decans. However, that is a whole debate in itself.

One point you may want to consider regarding Valens is that he wasn't using a modern tropical zodiac based on 0 Aries. Instead he followed an older astrological tradition which fixed the start of the zodiac to around 8 Aries. In his time there was no knowledge of precession and most astrologers believed the equinox was a fixed unchanging point. Its a whole debate whether one concludes this was a 'fixed equinox' outlook or a sidereal one. However, there is no evidence of fixed stars being used to plot the beginning of the zodiac by Valens or his contemporaries.

Hence Valens description of the meaning of terms and decans is based on a different zodiac to the one advocated by Ptolemy and many of the later hellenistic astrologers. The the detailed associations may well be different to a fully tropical zodiac due to the displacement in space involved. In particular there is an 8 degree separation between where they would start.

While the planetary rulers would remain the same there would be different fixed stars and constellations involved which would have been influencing the delineation of the bounds and decans. We see how much focus Valens gives to the constellations in his delineation of each sign. The same planetary rulers would remain but the constellation background (always important in tropical astrology!) would be different in the two approaches.

Due to the effects of precession this is much more of an issue today than in Valens time when two zodiacs were quite close. For that reason I dont necessarily think Valens detailed description of each decan or bound is still reliable for someone working with a tropical zodiac today. They are more likely to coincide with a sidereal zodiac as this is not subject to precession.

Mark

Mark, I'll be looking at Nixon's chart later today, but is it possible to explain how you get such perfectly sized charts for posting? They must be adjusted from the original solar fire charts? And how do you get them on the forum? I used to post charts on the ACT forum, but I had to move them into a graphics program to size them, and I don't remember how I moved them on to the forum. I have Solar Fire v. 5.1

If you don't want to distract from the forum topic of Nixon's chart, you can PM me or post the instructions somewhere else. I beieve there's a topic about posting charts?

Thanks,
Therese

I dont think the American public saw much of a distinction even if the lawyers did.

I do; he became something of an elder statesman after he left office something that never would have happened had he been removed. He wanted to fight the charges, but his party leaders (led by Barry Goldwater who hated him since the 1950s) said they would not support him. The other part is that Nixon is a complex character. While the left reviles him, his political accomplishments produced more that they would like than the right. The point being that whatever we see, tropical or sidereal, we can find the opposite in his life. There was much more to him and his impact than Watergate. His political career dated back to the late 1940s and he did much more than stand on the sidelines.

If we can find all of that or even most of it, then fine, but Nixon is linked to Watergate and if it is the only thing discussed, we'll have missed much.

Hello Therese,

Here are instructions on how to post a chart from the Horary forum. I use Tiny pic myself.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3538

From SF open up chart as normal with full view then minimize size (otherwise the chart saved is too large). Hit copy/send button. Assign title to chart and save on your PC/laptop desktop. Then follow instructions above on how to download from Tinypic.

Good luck!

Mark

Tom wrote:

If we can find all of that or even most of it, then fine, but Nixon is linked to Watergate and if it is the only thing discussed, we'll have missed much.

I hadn't really seen this as a political or controversial issue. Not least as the man has been out of office for almost 40 years. Many people here probably dont even know who he is. However, I am not an American and not in the same demographic as you. You obviously see it differently.

Its quite clear he had a varied life with many shifts and turns. I wasn't aiming to set out his full biography just kicking off an astrology discussion. Still, the reality is that Nixon's life is indelibly tied to Watergate whether that is fair or not.

I suggest people take a look at this Wikipedia article which gives a much broader perspective on Nixon as a whole person.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon

Mark

Tom wrote:

If we can keep that in mind fine, but then why bring up Watergate at all?

You seriously think we can just ignore it completely? I do find that quite a staggering statement. I agree lets take a rounded approach here and not reduce the man to just a political caricature. However, leaving it out from an assessment of his character would be totally bizarre. That sounds like a Communist history of Stalin that leaves out the purges.

Mark

Tom wrote:

Then here Nixon's chart comes up and the only description given is the fact that he left office in disgrace due to Watergate.

mmm seems like this thread will take a while to get back to some actual delineation. First off it wasn't all I mentioned. I acknowledged his role in detente with China and the Soviets. You seem to have been expecting a full summary of his life at the beginning of the thread. I was rather thinking we could unpick the layers as we went through the chart.

Clearly I have pressed a few personal buttons for you on this one and that is a shame. I just wanted to keep the thread going with what looked like a promising nativity to compare the two zodiacs. I think you make a valid point about the need to consider his whole life. For example Nixon's staunch religious background in a Quaker family and the family's experience of poverty in the Depression. Equally his role as an anti-communist in the 1950's or his Presidential race vs JF Kennedy. Nevertheless, I just dont except we can airbrush Watergate out of his life story. Actions define the man and at his point of greatest political power Nixon showed his character under pressure.

Mark

Please, can we try to stay on topic? I started this thread in order to illustrate how traditional techniques work in the sidereal for the basic facts about people's lives. This isn't a political forum, and it's also not a contest between the tropical and sidereal. This topic was supposed to be mostly about the sidereal zodiac for anyone who wants to learn how to use it.

Since I live in California, it will be the middle of the night in Europe before I can post notes on Nixon's chart. I will focus on the topic the ancient astrologers would have looked at: How do we see that this is a man who rose to the pinnacle of power, and then fell? This is well described in the sidereal chart using traditional techniques. I am taking time to look up quotes from the translations.

Mark and Tom...please note the topic heading for this thread! Please try to stay on track because I don't have time to read through long posts that are irrelevant to the topic. And these posts are very difficult to read by anyone for whom English is a second or third language. Can we stay with the astrology?

Therese