for me this forum is very much about learning more about trad astrology.. if a chart is going to used that has info on it, perhaps someone can give the rationale for it in there comments on these charts, as i am not really seeing very much of it to date
OK, more rationale for you James. But first, let me correct you. You said:
i still go with my comment about the pof or nodes being like dumb notes for some or many here.. a few folks commented on these points, but if you look closely deb never did
All my posts are limited by time and there?s always more I want to say than I can. That was the case when I made some quick comments on the chart, because I wanted to ?play along? even though I am straining my brain with other things at the moment. I should have thought that was obvious since below is the full extent of everything I had to say on the charts before Tom revealed who they were. The first post was to identify the musician when no other info was given, the 2nd after we knew a priest and footballer was also involved.
Post 1: -
For me it is between chart 1 and Nothing in chart 2 strikes me as particularly expressive of musical talent. At first glance chart 3 looks the most obvious, but the MC ruler is not well placed in Libra and the planetary contacts to the MC are the Sun-Saturn opposition. It all seems a bit 'dry' and that looks to me like someone who does something for a living which is considered a task, or something heavy and serious, rather than something that is based on personal enjoyment. I'm supposing that any professional musician must find a sense of delight in music.
So I opt for chart 1, which I initially dismissed because of the Saturn contacts and debiliated state of the MC ruler. Now I am thinking that a pianist must have a good sense of structure and timing, and be able to practice hard, but still find it enjoyable. The key point for me is angular Venus in Capricorn on the sextile of the MC where it is exalted, and making good aspects to Mercury in the 5th and Saturn on the IC, which is joined to the MC ruler. I've noted many times that actors, musicians and those who perform in the arts as a profession have either a luminary or the MC ruler in the 5th house, so I'll opt for chart 1, with chart 3 as my second choice.
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Post 2:
Chart 2 looks most like the chart of a famous footballer to me. That's the one with the most powerful Mars (ruling MC, in dignity, trine Jupiter which squares the MC). It also fits with the 5th house link to public performers.
I imagine the famous footballer would be the wealthiest of the three - not sure what to make of that with Mercury in detriment combust the Sun. On the other hand it is conjunct Venus and trine the NN on the 2nd cusp.
Chart 3 has the Moon in the 9th and ruling 9th cusp, with Sun ruling most of 9th house and in aspect to MC. So I'll give that one to the priest (my time is short so my reasoning is simple )
So ?if you look closely? you?ll see I did mention the nodes in the four sentences I wrote about the footballer in my 2nd post. It puzzled me that the footballer?s chart wasn?t showing signs of wealth, because I thought it was a modern footballer and forgot (as Tom pointed out) that the mega-money status of footballers is a modern phenomenon, and a western one too. Since Tom said the people involved may or may not be famous I assumed (again wrongly) that the footballer was probably the only one who would be famous enough for me to have heard of him. To me the node connections to angles or planets are of interest in every chart, but I only commented on it here because it related to what was puzzling me - as something that contradicted other negative indications of wealth (like the fact that the 2nd-ruler, POF, and the Moon which is the POF dispositor, are debilitated). Sometime the POF can be a dumb-note for me, unless I am looking at something where it is particularly relevant, such as indications of wealth. I?m less interested in lots and parts than many traditional astrologers, and I only ever treat them as supporting indications. I also blank out the nodes (and outer planets), unless they are connected to a planetary significator or angle.
My whole analysis of what turned out to be the priest?s chart was one line, but I find that chart very interesting and took notice of a lots of things. But my posts only summarised a few keys points, and my comments on all three charts put the focus on what found expression through the MC. That?s relevant, because I think the reason why this challenge worked out so well, even with quick analysis, was:
1) we were looking to identify three
different types of professions
2) we were not trying to judge the profession of three people who just had a job, but three people who each had a commitment their work ? to be a professional musician, footballer or priest, you have to have a deep interest in those three different types of activities. So we were dealing with people with
vocations, a word which describes what we identify to be our ?calling? in life, or where we delight to express ourselves.
So ? (more fully), my reasoning was this:
Chart 1 ? the musician.
His MC-ruler Jupiter is debilitated essentially and below the horizon, but powerfully placed on the MC-IC axis, conjunct Saturn and receiving the square of the Sun ? a good thing, except the Sun is also under the horizon. Overall that shows commitment and self-drive, being strongly ?rooted? and needing time to mature things ?in the dark?. But that is what goes deep, not what finds obvious outward expression in his public career. It?s Venus that makes the closest aspect to the MC degree, and everything about the connection of Venus is good, because it is not only angular and simultaneously sextiling the MC and trining the MC-ruler, and the angular Saturn with reception, it is powerful by every sect consideration. By phase it is as potent as any planet can be, because it?s an occidental planet and its distance behind the Sun is the one where it finds its strongest expression throughout the two-fold inferior planet cycles. So we know that this person delights to express that Venus in his work, and it is going to be the most obvious significator of whatever he puts out in his public persona. This is almost certainly why Margherita, in making only one key observation on the chart, chose this point. I?m sure she could have said a lot more, but sometimes saying more becomes less, because it takes the emphasis away from what matters most.
Chart 2 ? the footballer
The MC is in Aries, ruled by Mars, and his 5th house Sun is in a fire sign and trining the Asc and MC ? of the three professions given this is the one that shows the necessary indications of heat, action and energy.
Mars as MC-ruler is dignified essentially and accidentally, and ?like engirdling? the degree of the MC. It is also connected to the degree of the nodes, as is the MC-degree. Like Venus in the musician chart, Mars is in its most powerfully expressive phase (oriental and separated from the Sun between 30-60?), so this is an extremely ?vigorous? Mars, which also gives a lot of determination and stamina because it is in its fixed sign and receiving a sextile from the Capricorn Moon by exaltation. This is all going on underneath the horizon, showing what he draws from, so it needs some other planet to bring its expression outwards for this person to gain public attention. It?s the exalted Jupiter that does this, being on the trine of Mars and the square of the midheaven. So what we see of him professionally is also going to carry the signature of Jupiter in some way. I don?t know his story but from what Tom wrote it sounds like he was well liked. I?d imagine him to be someone who was aggressive on the pitch but also considered to be generous and benevolent. He had a lot of power, but it?s controlled power and operates through Jupiter. Jupiter, as ruler of the 8th and in the 12th house makes me think that he must have suffered some personal set backs and that he also needs his privacy and didn?t go ?clamouring for fame?.
Chart 3 ? the priest
I like the way this chart shows the priest to be a true theologian and ?man of God? by the Mercurial theme, the Moon in the 9th and the rulership of both luminaries over the 9th house signs. Here the POF on the Virgo MC is worth noting. The MC and POF ruler, Mercury, is fairly strong by phase because its arc from the Sun is a good one, but it?s oriental so the phase is not notably powerful and expressive, as it was in the other two charts. Mercury is afflicted by a debilitated Mars, so this man must spend a lot of time involved in disputes and arguments, and he must feel afflicted by them. That?s not something he ?delights? in, but what he can?t avoid. If anything, it ties him up with frustration. But he?s Scorpio rising so he can?t fail to fight for his causes and hold on to his arguments. It?s the Sun that draws attention because it disposes the 9th house Moon and connects to the degree of the MC which has Fortuna sitting on it by partile sextile. I?m sure he feels that much of his work is driven by the glorification of God. But the Sun is in the 12th house and opposed by Saturn, so he expects his work to be a commitment, of labour and dedication, and he wants to honour something historical and traditional. We can?t take Saturn out of the picture because it?s within minutes of a trine to the MC. This is the perfect picture of a conservative Catholic priest, who likes to study scriptures but can?t avoid theological or political disputes, who tends to get involved in what is happening in public affairs (most planets above the horizon), but thinks that he really wants privacy (Sun in 12th), yet expects to suffer hardship because that is what it?s all about (Sun opp Saturn).
I have no idea if any of the above is right or not in its details, because the biographies of these characters are unknown to me, but that?s what I noticed when I made my quick remarks without spelling it all out, not looking at anything except what I can quickly take note of in the chart wheels that Tom presented. The challenge was only to identify the musician, and then the footballer and priest, and to give some reasoning for the choices (to show we are not randomly guessing but actually using astrology).
One point which others may consider controversial. Essential dignity is something I always consider but I think that its importance often gets overstated. An essentially dignified planet in a place where it can?t find expression is a red herring, and a planet that lacks dignity essentially can do a lot if it has the right supporting factors. As I said before, this challenge was a good one because we are looking at what comes out of the MC which is the most powerfully expressive angle in the chart and shows what the public is able to notice and observe. I personally wouldn?t think of looking at the minor essential dignities for something like this, and I wouldn?t expect such powerful contacts to the degree of the MC in the charts of people who work as a means to a paycheck, or maybe don?t get noticed by others for the contribution they make to their field.
So now over to you ? what was it you noticed in the charts and refrained from posting?
I will have to be no more than a reader for a while because of my 'brain-strain' commitment.
...and oh, by the way, more prominent than either Mercury or Venus in my chart is... wait for it...