Skyscript Astrology Forum

hi Therese,

You have a definitive 14:00 hr. (13:59:34) for Diana, Princess of Wales. Mr. Karve, the Indian man who claims precise birth times gave 14:10. I've been using that time.

I take Diana's marriage as an example.

Diana, Princess of Wales married at St. Paul's Cathedral 7/29/1981, 11:17:30 AM GDT.

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Di ... s_of_Wales

I use harmonic 4096, because the difference two birth times is approximately 10 minutes.

For the birth time 13:59:34

Transit Mercury = Transit Jupiter = Transit Node = Transit AC = Transit MC = Natal Jupiter

Exact harmonic point 0° 1' 19'' ,either we subtract or add it.

Mercury is AC-Lord , Jupiter is 7.house Lord.

Transit Mercury = 0° 1' 50''
Transit Jupiter = 0° 3' 09'' - 0° 1' 19'' = 0° 1' 50''
Transit Node = 0° 0' 31'' + 0° 1' 19'' = 0° 1' 50''
Natal Jupiter = 0° 1' 51''

Transit Sun = Natal Jupiter/Uranus = Natal Venus
Transit Venus = Natal Sun/Node
Transit Moon = Transit Uranus = Natal Sun/Venus = Natal Mercury
Transit Mars = Natal Moon/Jupiter


For birth time 14:10 would be :

1)Natal Jupiter 0° 1' 48''
2)Transit Sun = Natal Mercury/Neptune
3)Transit Venus = Natal AC/Node
4)Transit Moon = Transit Uranus = Natal Venus
5)Transit Mars = Natal Moon/Pluto

It looks for the time 13:59:34 better
because the equations below show the event better.

a-Transit Sun = Natal Venus (love)
b-Transit Venus = Natal Sun/Node (marriage)
3-Transit Mars = Natal Moon/Jupiter (a happy event)


Solar Return

I compare Jupiter, because it is 7th house lord.

For the time 13:59:34

Solar Jupiter = Natal Jupiter

Solar Jupiter = 0° 3' 10'' - 0° 1' 19'' = 0° 1' 51''
Natal Jupiter = 0° 1' 51''
Transit Jupiter = 0° 3' 09'' - 0° 1' 19''= 0° 1' 50''

For birth time 14:10 would be :

Solar Jupiter = 0° 3' 13'' - 0° 1' 19'' = 0° 1' 54''
Natal Jupiter = 0° 1' 48''
Transit Jupiter = 0° 3' 09'' - 0° 1' 19''= 0° 1' 50''

I could show more, but I think it's enough.
Of course it has been shown with my technique, with other techniques time 14:10 could be maybe better.

for example here looks better for birth time 14:10 if you only use harmonic 1 :

(for the time 14:10 )
Tertiary Venus = 26° 50' 43'' Psc
Natal DC = 25° 42' 07'' Psc

(for the time 13:59:34 )
Tertiary Venus = 26° 50' 12'' Psc
Natal DC = 23° 53' 49'' Psc


In my technique is most important , when it comes to higher harmonic 4096, corresponding planet pictures for the event must be exact to the second.In Astrology there is no Orb.When a second is off,then it does not mean that there is any Orb, because we always divide the circle on two then it will be during division 1 second lost.

linchi

Thank you, Linchi. I'll reply a bit later. Here is northern California we are having major fires, and with the heat and smoke (no air conditioning) it is difficult to think in any constructive way. Temperatures are much higher than normal to support the global warming scenario.

I am glad that you are well Therese

Thanks for your well wishes, Linchi. We are as well as can be expected, inhaling smoke for several days now. I had some questions, but will save them for tomorrow. I did want to compare the two birth times for Diana, so I set up Lunar Returns/D9 charts for both times. (Since you asked if I had ever compared the Lunar D9 chart.)

With the14:10 time, taking the D9 lunar ascendant, lunar Sun and Rahu fall on the ascendant:

3° 03' Cnc lunar Sun
5° 52' Cnc lunar D9 Asc
8° 28' Cnc lunar Rahu
2° 10' Cnc Natal MC

Cancer is Diana's 11th house sign which is also seen as a house related to marriage in India, especially in the Krishnamurti school.

(Remembering that Princess Stephanie had lunar Asc-Rahu-D9 Sun. I set up my own marriage lunar, 3 Oct 1964, and taking D9 as the ascendant, lunar Sun-Rahu fall on cusp 7, conjunct natal 7th lord Mercury.)

When I set up Diana's lunar return for 13:59:34 the D9 ascendant goes back to Gemini, with lunar Mercury-Mars on the ascendant. Venus-Jupiter go to 11th.

Traditionally angles are very important in return charts. For Diana's 14:10 chart, both Venus and Jupiter (natal 7th lord) straddle cusp 10, so are in a 90 degree configuration with Sun-Asc-Rahu.

01° 14' Ari lunar D9 Venus
05° 52' Cnc lunar D9 Asc
06° 49' Ari lunar D9 Jupiter (natal 7th lord)

These positions are precise enough for the practicing astrologer, but nowhere near to-the-second accuracy of harmonics. It seems to me that there should be an agreement (similar time) with your harmonic work, Linchi. But it's late and I can't think about this anymore tonight. Questions tomorrow.

I could not access your marriage/divorce work as it is on Scribd.

Therese Hamilton wrote: When I set up Diana's lunar return for 13:59:34 the D9 ascendant goes back to Gemini, with lunar Mercury-Mars on the ascendant. Venus-Jupiter go to 11th.

Mercury is 7.House Nakshatra Lord and Mars is Sub-Lord.For the time 14:10 Sub-Lord is Rahu.Sub-lord is very important in Krishnamurti school, as you know.

Questions tomorrow.

questions are always welcome

I could not access your marriage/divorce work as it is on Scribd.

All my works are as .pdf here, except suicide, because I could not upload it there :

https://archive.org/details/@cemalcicek

Marriage-Divorce :

https://archive.org/details/Astrologica ... ageDivorce

Therese Hamilton wrote:
When I set up Diana's lunar return for 13:59:34 the D9 ascendant goes back to Gemini, with lunar Mercury-Mars on the ascendant. Venus-Jupiter go to 11th.

Linchi wrote:
Mercury is 7.House Nakshatra Lord and Mars is Sub-Lord.For the time 14:10 Sub-Lord is Rahu.Sub-lord is very important in Krishnamurti school, as you know.

This is interesting though we are are looking for verification of Rahu-Venus which you have chosen for marriage. And it would seem (in theory) that there must be links to the natal 7th house or 7th lord from return charts. I am not sure that nakshatra lords apply in return charts as I haven't studied the charts in that way. Something else to research.

Questions:
Did you use 10:58 AM when you compared my chart with yours?

I take Diana's marriage as an example.
(...)
I use harmonic 4096, because the difference two birth times is approximately 10 minutes.

For the birth time 13:59:34

Transit Mercury = Transit Jupiter = Transit Node = Transit AC = Transit MC = Natal Jupiter

Exact harmonic point 0° 1' 19'' ,either we subtract or add it.

How did you calculate the exact harmonic point?

...for example here [it] looks better for birth time 14:10 if you only use harmonic 1 :

(for the time 14:10 )
Tertiary Venus = 26° 50' 43'' Psc
Natal DC = 25° 42' 07'' Psc

(for the time 13:59:34 )
Tertiary Venus = 26° 50' 12'' Psc
Natal DC = 23° 53' 49'' Psc

In my technique is most important, when it comes to higher harmonic 4096, corresponding planet pictures for the event must be exact to the second...

But then doesn't other symbolism (such as Tertiary Venus above) or lunar return symbolism have to give the same precise result in birth time? (which it doesn't) Or would you say that harmonic 1 symbolism can only be general and can't determine a birth time to the precise minute or second?

Then taking lunar returns (as an example), would progressing the chart in the normal way give accurate symbolic results for the day of marriage, keeping harmonic 1? (As I said, I haven't progressed return charts, though this is normally done with Fagan-style return charts by astrologers who use those charts.)

Therese Hamilton wrote: Did you use 10:58 AM when you compared my chart with yours?

Yes, I used the time 10:58

How did you calculate the exact harmonic point?

The logic in my harmonics that we always divide the zodiac into two,until it is no longer possible to divide it.

The left column are the exact harmonic points,the right ones are the harmonic numbers.if we know only the birthday, then use up to Harmonic 16,
if we have birth time rounded to the hours, then we use up to Harmonic 256,
if we have birth time accurate to the minute , then we use Harmonic 4096,
if we have birth time accurate to the second , then we use Harmonic 65536 and higher harmonics.

360° 1
180° 2
90° 4
45° 8
22°30' 16
11°15' 32
5°37'30" 64
2°48'45" 128
1°24'22" 256
42'11" 512
21'05" 1024
10'32" 2048
5'16" 4096
2'38" 8192
1'19" 16384
40" 32768
20" 65536
10" 131072
5" 262144

Or would you say that harmonic 1 symbolism can only be general and can't determine a birth time to the precise minute or second?

Yes, that's what I wanted to say.With harmonic 1 on the minute accurate birth time correction is rare,on the second-precise birth time correction is almost impossible.The question is, have we to correct the birth time to the second ?
Yes, because we do not know, if we correct the birth times to the second, what we can still discover in astrology.People do not need birth times to the second, but we researchers do.

Then taking lunar returns (as an example), would progressing the chart in the normal way give accurate symbolic results for the day of marriage, keeping harmonic 1? (As I said, I haven't progressed return charts, though this is normally done with Fagan-style return charts by astrologers who use those charts.)

I have not studied Fagan-style progressed return charts.I calculate normal return charts and compare with natal,without natal i do not look returns.

Linchi wrote:

The left column are the exact harmonic points,the right ones are the harmonic numbers.if we know only the birthday, then use up to Harmonic 16,
if we have birth time rounded to the hours, then we use up to Harmonic 256,
if we have birth time accurate to the minute , then we use Harmonic 4096,
if we have birth time accurate to the second , then we use Harmonic 65536 and higher harmonics.

360° 1
180° 2
90° 4
45° 8
22°30' 16
11°15' 32
5°37'30" 64
2°48'45" 128
1°24'22" 256
42'11" 512
21'05" 1024
10'32" 2048
5'16" 4096
2'38" 8192
1'19" 16384
40" 32768
20" 65536
10" 131072
5" 262144

This is very helpful. Now I finally understand how you are working. I have always based my work on the importance of trine relationships which is why I have taken so long to "catch on" to your procedures. This is no doubt why I never felt tuned into the midpoint schools. It's interesting how each individual mind has its own perspective.

Today I meant to look further into the Suicide study charts, but it seems that my old XP computer (kept to run ADB 4) cannot handle large files. There is the message "cannot load some pages." I have run into this problem before. Even larger PDF files won't load. Time to upgrade to keep up with the times!

I would suggest (to anyone) that for the usual forum/internet readers that research be presented in small bites rather than book sized files. I had planned to look at several lunar returns for suicide cases. Of course I can get suicide cases from my installed ADB 4, but the names may be different than the list in the suicide study. The only way I can get the list of names in the study is to use Print Screen and copy the page as a graphic. I may do that. My printer refused to print pages as they are presented on-line.

I'm sorry to hear that.
Depending on the operating system changes/developments, the files gets bigger and bigger.Maybe it's better to have new operating system.

I can split .pdf file for you.
is it enough if I split on 4, each 100 pages ?

here you can download
I hope it works

https://ia601506.us.archive.org/22/item ... cide_1.pdf

https://ia601506.us.archive.org/22/item ... cide_2.pdf

https://ia601506.us.archive.org/22/item ... cide_3.pdf

https://ia601506.us.archive.org/22/item ... cide_4.pdf

https://ia601506.us.archive.org/22/item ... cide_5.pdf

With so many graphics, my max is probably 50 pages or less. For starters, I would only work with 10-20 charts anyway. (I have other projects going, and a major office re-organization--(50 years accumulated files, books, charts etc. What to toss and what to keep and organize?).

But in a few days there will be the usual stream of August family visitors to deal with, though I have tried to discourage them due to the heat and smoke.

Oh, to handle anything other than text files, I definitely need a new operating system. My question is, how to now schedule my time with so many options. (Being text based, AstroDatabank 4 still works very well along with and an old version of Solar fire.)

Linchi, I don't have the skills or ability to evaluate your work, but so much effort is involved that your work needs professional study and evaluation. Astrology is now stepping into "areas unknown," and I hope we will be seeing a new brand of clear-thinking astrologers and researchers. Yes, I do feel as if I'm one of those who will be left behind.

I hope to add notes on a few of the suicide charts as soon as possible.