I agree with Kirk and Deb that Mars is so important in these charts. It is also true with most charts involving large loss of life due to accident or natural disasters. As I have mentioned before, I have looked at rail accident charts on and off for a couple of years and discovered that Mars is almost always involved in a significant way. In these charts, the Moon and Mars are in Ptolemaic aspect in almost 70% of cases. It is similar with Sun/Mars. What I found interesting though, is that it is the so-called easy aspects that are the most common. Although I was taught many years ago that the easy aspects are good aspects, it makes a lot of sense that these aspects, i.e. sextile and trine, can bring easy facilitation of such disasters and that they predominate in these charts.

On the upcoming solar eclipse, I just looked at Solar Maps and the eclipse goes right through Madrid and through North African countries, Tunisia, Sudan, Libya and Kenya. The eclipse is conjunct Pluto in the 1975 chart for Spain.

In this and the other terrorist attack charts discussed above, the Moon is making an application to the ruler of the 7th house in all instances except the Bali bombings, where the Moon is actually on the 7th house. Also, in all charts the 7th house ruler is either Mars or if not, it aspects Mars by a major aspect.

That is very interesting indeed. I'd like to look into that further with other charts. So much to do and so little time......

I think Kirk makes a good point about the Sun/Mars square happening in Cardinal signs. These are very action-orientated. (That quality is sometimes overlooked with seemingly "passive" signs like Cancer and Libra). Planets in Cardinal signs are powerful and arguably more likely to trigger/cause some result in the material world than, say, the same planetary configuration happening in Mutable or Fixed signs.

I find it interesting that several of us have reached the same conclusion about this terrorist operation having strong national/British roots, but through different approaches:

In the event chart I would have taken the 12th house to represent the terrorists - as a hidden enemy. The sun rules the 12th and also rules the 1st. The sun is also in cancer. Cancer suggested to me that they are "from home" or nationals....

And just noticed another thing: Mars rules the 9th AND the 4th House...tying together the meanings of these two houses: Mars, the terrorist group, is foreign (9th) but operating or having a strong base, presence, or foundation on domestic (English) soil (4th).

Does Pluto in Sag in the 4th represent this? I originally saw Pluto here as " a 'religious/foreign' (sag) bomb (pluto) buried deep underground (4th Sco)". (Total beginner.) Or someone who was obsessed with religion and wanted to undermine our, for want of a better word, heritage.

It seems that Mars in Aries in the 9th ruling the 4th; Pluto in Sagittarius in the 4th; and possibly the Sun in Cancer; are factors which all point to a threat based firmly at "home" but also containing a foreign/religious element.

Another good example of the same "message" or theme being repeated in a chart, albeit through different symbolism, and in different ways.

His Sun is at 23 Sag, his Neptune is at 26 Sag, and the noon chart for his date of birth shows the Moon at 24 Sag. His Sun, Moon and Neptune conjunction show an intense, idealistic and impressionable young man.

[What follows is a Neptune rant; nothing more]

What does "idealistic" mean? The American Heritiage Dictionary says an idealist is:

One whose conduct is influenced by ideals esp. when they are in conflict with practical considerations.

Deb didn't say that this person's actions were idealistic, in fact lots of people are looking at this noon chart and using the same word, so please don't misunderstand what follows. I told you; it's a rant. However, I think what happened last week is a bit more than "conflict with practical considerations." Wouldn't "delusional" be a better word to describe Neptune in this case or perhaps in any case where Neptune is prominent?

Delude: "To deceive the mind or judgment." (same dictionary) Therefore, one who is delusional is one whose mind and/or judgment is deceived. It's not functioning properly. Unless we are going to grant that the actions taken on London subways last week are adherence to ideals and the moral equivilant of being a member of the Labor or Tory parties and blowing up innocents the same as taking a position on an issue, I think we're going to have to say "delusional" is a more appropriate delineation of Neptune's influence than is "idealistic." Otherwise we may have to start referring to those old idealists, Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, and maybe even Jack the Ripper. He had strong beliefs that involved killing people, too.

I have this feeling that moderns would prefer to see Neptune as "nice" or at least potenially nice and not be so "fatalistic," therefore it is better to associate Neptune with something acceptable like "idealism," rather than an improperly functioning mind. At the very least, Neptune advocates should have some standards to determine when Neptune is idealistic (if ever) and when Neptune is delusional. But this assumes that delusion is an extension or extreme degree of idealism, and I doubt that's true. We sometimes think of idealists as wildy impractical, but we hardly ever associate murderous activities with them. Perhaps the case can be made that idealists are all potentially delusional, but I think that is a hard corner from which to fight. I think of John Paull II and the Dali Lama as idealistic in the finest sense. I'll look for Neptune's influence in their charts another time.

In this chart, for example, Neptune is combust, as is the Moon. And I believe the Moon would be considered combust all day. In the Noon chart, it is a tight combustion. If we combine this with the Mars - Saturn mutual reception and square, and note the Jupiter is the ruler of the 9th (in the Noon chart) and posited in the 8th, we get a pretty good picture of his "ideals." They consist of death and destruction. Not a pretty sight.

There is something wrong with people, who are born and raised in one of the world's best places to live and grow who can see nothing but evil everywhere they look and think the solution to the evil is random acts of murder accompanied by suicide. [I note in passing the guy who talked them into this is still alive and, sadly, probably well] There is a serious disconnect that is well beyond political or even religious beliefs (although he may have called it that). This is mental illness at best. That an individual can be persuaded to take the lives of innocents and his own in the bargain for the sake of ... what? He lost his connection with humanity or he willingly surrendered it, and that was before he killed all those people. And he did more to accomplish the opposite of his ends than anything else. Neptune is delusion, and having a combust Moon made it worse.

Tom

Hi Tom,

I also think you have a good point. But bear in mind that we have judged this man delusional because of his actions, yet the people who knew him, who were shocked to discover he was involved because of his ?gentle manner? don?t describe him as such. It is interesting that the Daily Mail summarised his character by saying ?- he was young, idealistic and impressionable?. They don?t use the terms ?idealistic and impressionable? in reference to the other bombers they profile, even though one was 4 years younger ? so the people who knew this man tended to think of him as idealistic and yet I am sure they would now admit that the term ?delusional? was apt. Perhaps there is a thin line between the two. With the Sun and Moon conjunct (as you say the Moon will be combust at whatever time of day he was born) he would have been intense and lacking balance, and with Neptune involved impressionable and needing some cause to ?sacrifice? himself to. Pluto?s transit coincided with the period where he was described as becoming ?consumed with religious fervour? ? obviously he was in touch with dark political forces. I haven't looked at his chart long enough to see more than the obvious.

BTW, birth data released for two of the other bombers are:

Mohhammad Sadique Khan ? 30 year old bomber of tube at Edgware Rd ? 20 October 1974, Leeds.

This man had the Sun, Uranus, & Mars closely conjunct and Venus not far away:
Venus ? 22 Libra
Mars ? 25 Libra
Sun ? 27 Libra
Uranus ? 28 Libra

Hasib Mir Hussain ? 18 year old bomber of the bus in Tavistock Square ? 16 September 1986, Leeds.
I?ve only had a quick glance at the charts but there?s nothing obvious in this one which would earmark him as prone to extreme action ? at least not that I can see.

I have this feeling that moderns would prefer to see Neptune as "nice" or at least potenially nice and not be so "fatalistic," therefore it is better to associate Neptune with something acceptable like "idealism," rather than an improperly functioning mind. At the very least, Neptune advocates should have some standards to determine when Neptune is idealistic (if ever) and when Neptune is delusional. But this assumes that delusion is an extension or extreme degree of idealism, and I doubt that's true. We sometimes think of idealists as wildy impractical, but we hardly ever associate murderous activities with them. Perhaps the case can be made that idealists are all potentially delusional, but I think that is a hard corner from which to fight. I think of John Paull II and the Dali Lama as idealistic in the finest sense.

There is an elusive assumption here that idealism is good, if sometimes impractical. Being idealistic is often equated with being guided by a high moral standard. It?s easy for us to imagine John Paul II and the Dalai Lama as idealistic, but it sounds wrong to refer to Hitler as such. But if we allow idealism its neutral meaning of following an idea, a mental image, the personal inner experience and its potential (probable?) conflict with reality?for good or evil?becomes apparent. The link of ?idea? and ?ideal? with Platonic archetypes as eternal forms and patterns may shed some light on Neptunian ?idealism?. But that?s part of the Neptune evasiveness: how does one sit down and think about archetypes?

Concerning the event: Did the Moon do its work in naming the bombers from Libra when it again activated the square by opposing Mars (the Warrior) and squaring the Sun? If I have my timing right, the announcement was made during the transit.

From Deb:

It might be a good exercise to look at the next solar eclipse at 21 Libra, and start considering which national charts show sensitivity around that degree.

I found this on http://www.astrologycom.com/2005yearahead.html from Richard Gilles

Four eclipses happen in 2005. The first are in April 8th (Solar) and 24th (Lunar). The second one is directly opposite the Lunar eclipse point of 28th October last year. The most interesting two are the Solar eclipse on 3rd October and the Lunar one of 17th October with the Sun in Libra. The first squares Australia's national Capricorn Sun exactly (we were born as a nation on 1st January 1901) and the second conjuncts our progressed Sun (our evolving nationhood). Those six months onwards from October 2005 will see some very big challenging shifts in Australia's identity and national development. There'll be a lot of soul-searching about our international and national roles.

Hope it helps, since I don~t know what is the data for australia :-)

He also agrees with me that the period November/december is very dangerous...

But I wouldn~t open a "dangerous configuration for november thread", or people would accuse me of being a bearer of omens (?0
:-)
Yuzuru

HI Deb,

But bear in mind that we have judged this man delusional because of his actions, yet the people who knew him, who were shocked to discover he was involved because of his ?gentle manner? don?t describe him as such.

You're too kind, "we" didn't judge him delusional, I did and if he had come to someone for a reading, the astrologer certainly would not have said, "Hmmm according to this, you're delusional." Hindsight is always 20-20. I try to see the chart as value neutral, although I find it difficult to be that way myself. So my remarks were more aimed at the potential malice of Neptune. If we ever see a combust Neptune - Moon conjunction again, we might be less charitable in our conclusions. To me it will always be a red flag.

Elsewhere on this thread someone mentions the idea that "idealistic" isn't always good. Strictly speaking, that's true. People can and do stick to bad and sometimes evil principles. Infamous American gangster Al Capone insisted he was just a businessman (with rather severe competitive practices). He believed that. He was sticking to a principle: it is just fine to give people what they want even if it is illegal liquor, gambling, and prostitution, and you have to kill in order to maintain your customer base.

There are always denotations and connotations, and the connotation of "idealist" always seems to be admirable, if possibly a little loopy.. The person sitting in a tree in order to prevent it from being cut down is an idealist. Loopy perhaps, but not evil. It is the connotation I was aiming at. We have to use some words to describe what we see in the chart, and "idealist," in the value neutral sense is certainly valid here. Results showed us how the promise of the chart played out.

Tom

Hi Everyone

Please can someone take a few seconds to explain why the moon is so important in these cases? I am a complete beginner and either have knowledge missing or am having a x hair moment!

I can follow through the rest and can reach similar (although on a much more basic level), conclusions, but I am missing something with the moon.

Can someone point me in the right direction, please?

thanks

hel

Can I suggest you read the short piece by David Plant at http://www.skyscript.co.uk/sublunar.html

This should help you understand why the Moon is so important.

Hi Deb

Thanks for the link. I still don't fully understand, but now I know which direction I'm going in.

Thanks again

hel