I want to reply properly to Fleur's initial post, but Thomas Aquinas's views are interesting for astrologers. To summarise it, and I haven't read Michael's link yet, but the celestial influences were imagined as physical influences in the sense that they were imagined as being something akin to radiation. But, importantly, for Thomas Aquinas, these influences could only affect the physical or grosser bodies. The soul, and basically the mind in general, was free of astrological influence. In this way things could be fated (they may affect the body), but the individual still have free will (the mind/soul existed outside of the realm of celestial influence).

So in this manner Thomas Aquinas put forth a theory (inspired by Albert Magnus), that the soul was not affected by astrological influences of any kind, and the individual had free will as a result - compare that to the modern psychological approach to astrology. In that approach free will remains at the heart of matters, and, yet, the relationship is put upside down. In that way of thinking the celestial influences, or, rather correspondances, only occur in the mental/psychological realm, and the physical world is free of such influences.

Paul, thanks for that explanation.

I am still not really clear, but I wonder if that is the same as the idea put forth in the book "The Jacket" by Jack London? He begins the novel with the protagonist introducing himself as Darrrell Standing, who is a murderer imprisoned in a hell hole prison being tortured with no way out, and who goes back into many past lives and draws the conclusion that we are not who we seem to be in this one life, but we have many lives.

I can accept that. There was no way he could change anything in this life, it was all completely fated, but his soul was more than the one life.

Astrologically, I think what happens is that our birth charts and the planets absolutely show what happens to us in this lifetime, and somewhere in the birth chart there is probably a way to see how we connect with other lifetimes, but I don't know how to read that, maybe I will find out one day.

Obviously, we are eternal souls experiencing one time bound, Saturn-bound lifetime. Astrology is ruled by Uranus which has insight into that which is beyond time.

We can tap into something beyond time, as did the protagonist of "The Jacket". This is what astrologers do. But we can't alter what happens in this lifetime. I am now wondering about the fairy tale where the fairy says she can't alter the curse but the princess won't die but will sleep for a hundred years.....

I can accept neither Thomas Aquinas's alleged psychological freedom from astrological influences nor Fleur's fatalism regarding them, although I recognize some truth in both. My own position falls somewhere on the middle ground.

Having been involved with astrology for some 25 years, I am indeed impressed how accurate it is - not only in regards to character but also to external events. Although some of the correlations with the latter admittedly become obvious only after the event.

My presently best answer to the question of determinism vs free will from an astrological perspective would be that we can't choose the basic energies we are dealing with at a given time, but, to one degree or another, we can choose how we want to express and experience those energies in our life. And that's where, from my perspective, Thomas Aquinas's freedom of will comes into play.

However, the notion that the astrological influences would only affect the outer but not the inner levels makes little sense to me. Because in my view, the external and physical tends to reflect the internal and psychological.

Maybe there is a still place inside us where we connect with who we really are, which is more than what is happening to us in one lifetime. But this lifetime, in Time, seems to be totally mapped out by the planets.

I know what Michael means by astrological patterns having more than one effect, but during say a very difficult transit you often get very minor good effects from that same transit. A bit like those financial charts that move in waves rather than going straight up or straight down. That does not mean the the main thrust of that transit isn't difficult. I don't think that by following some new age book that you can change the main meaning of any transit or arc.

And yes, I have definitely noticed that a difficult transit can sometimes seem to be played, in a very minor way, in the opposite direction.

This is why I was wondering what an astrologer actually does. An example I was wondering about, I was looking at the AA data chart on Astro data bank of Gerry McCann, the father of Madeleine who vanished in 2007. The transits are so overwhelming that my thought was, if he had come to you say a year before what happened as your astrological client, wanting advice, maybe feeling some sort of angst that something was about to happen and wanting guidance and re-assurance, what would you say to him? Is it even possible that just by putting him in touch with his deeper energies through his birth chart, that the tragedy could have been prevented?

Either way, I still think that salvation is more likely to be in looking at the deeper energies in a person's birth chart. Definitely looking at their chart, and not barely glimpsing at it, rattling off the first nine degree orb aspect you see in the chart and then prescribing solutions from a short list, which is what new agists do. At very least show what is fated some respect. Elliott Rodger had read A Course in Miracles and got upset because it didn't work.

There can be little doubt that our psychological traits tend to get us in typical situations, over and over again. Traits that are obviously being described by our natal chart.

If those patterns of thought, emotion and behaviour were entirely beyond modification by our conscious efforts, any kind of inner work and psychotherapy would be quite useless. That being said, I agree that much of what is presented today in New Age circles is hardly adequate for dealing with the deep-seated issues that can be revealed by a natal chart. The profound insights into a personality structure that Astrology provides were the reason C.G.Jung studied his patients' charts in the more difficult cases, and why I did likewise during my collaboration with a psychiatrist back in the 90's.

Moreover, I consider it to be a powerful approach to use Astrology not only for the diagnostic but also for the therapeutic side. While there have been a few pioneers in that area, there is so much room for study in that area yet to be undertaken.

A simple but effective method would be to seek a constructive mode of expression for any difficult configuration identified in a natal or progressed chart. Let's look at an example... Let's say you know that there is a transit of Neptune over your Mars coming up. Now normally this would indicate a difficult period during which you experience a lack of will power and determination, entailing various difficulties in daily life. E.g., you may frequently find yourself on the losing end in arguments with your environment during such a time; your immune system may be low, making you more susceptible to infections; you may see a cherished plan of yours going south because you just can't find the motivation to really follow through with it, etc.

Now consider you figure out that, as a matter of fact, Taiji would be a positive form of expression of the astrological principles you are inevitably going to deal with, as it is a martial art which, however, employs soft and wave-like movements in practice, and which emphasizes meditative aspects like few others, so it is very much Neptunian in its character as well.

You decide to take it up, and before long, you will find that the people around you are less prone to mess with you; not necessarily because they fear you might blast them through a closed window otherwise, but they will surely sense that inner strength of yours you are exercising on a daily basis. Also, the art's well known health enhancing effects will boost your immune system and keep you up to your tasks while many of those around you will be struggling with that latest flu epidemic wrecking havoc. And your focus on regularly attending your classes will help you remain steadfast and determined in other areas of life as well. And so on.

This is just one example out of many, and anybody equipped with some knowledge of astrological analogies and/or a few good books spelling them out can easily come up with their own.

Hope this will get some of you thinking...