Skyscript Astrology Forum

stefan.. thanks! ""If Moon is alone in Karakamsha or in 5th from Karakamsha, the native become a musician." - if i switch to krisnamurti, i get natal moon in scorpio and navamsha moon in cancer - which is 5th to navamsha jupiter in pisces, based off jupiter as the atmakaraka... so either lahari or krisnamurti i get moon in 5th from the atmakaraka..

Aha it is...yes it's a complicated issue haha....

Btw I forgot to mention that from Karakamsha gemini in birthchart, if using parashara technique there is a 3rd ruler in 10th house combo again.
So moon as atma soul indicator seems to from various angles point to a soul desire to deal with music in professional setting.

Interesting study....

(Canada based astrologer christopher Keville use krishnamurti. Maybe you heard of him as you are from Canada as well. Good site. He use a blend of western and vedic techniques.)
http://modernvedicastrology.com/

thanks stefan and for the link to a canuck mixed astrology practitioner..i will take a look...

can you explain the 3rd ruler in the 10th to me.. - saturn is ruler of 3rd.. saturn is ruled by mars, and mars is in the 10th house to the navamsha jupiter in pisces? is that it?

Yeah I know this is confusing.

3rd ruler in 10th:
Career of selfexpression.
"....possible careers in writing, lecturing, sales, computers, communications,
or expressive arts such as dancing, acting or music"

from Bill Levacy "Beneath a vedic sky"

In vedic one can read the chart from various ascendants to get confirmation and confluence.
In your rashi chart you have 3rd ruler in ascendant as also Therese pointed out.
But using the moon in Libra you get this combination of 3rd and 10th house from various angles.

First from reading the chart from the moon sign libra. From libra the 3rd house is sagittarius ruled by Jupiter. Jupiter is placed in 10th house from moon. This is once...

Then as the moon is atmakaraka significator of soul in libra moon chart. Then there is a variety of techniques to use for reading the atmakaraka.

From karakamsha gemini we get the ruler of 3rd the sun in 10th house.

An important ascendant in jyotish is arudha lagna.
Arudha lagna is leo. From leo 3rd house is libra ruled by venus. Venus is in 10th house from leo.

From arudha lagna leo.. The moon is placed in 3rd house libra.
Moon in 3rd house
".....artistic in general, interest in the performing arts."


The confluence of this theme seen from various perspective is quite strong.

Yes this is not first things learned in jyotish, but may contribute something about moon position.

james_m wrote:AJ - thanks.. i am a bit confused then by francois comment who first brought this up... lahari moon is at 29 libra 58... 1 minute is now 29 libra 59 but it sounded as thought francois got the moon into scorpio with it.. 1 minute here and 1 minute there and the next thing you know, your moon is now in scorpio! rhyme for a song, lol.. with krisnamurti - moon gets into scorpio - but both lahari and krisnamurti give a 4 degree scorpio ascendant.. at any rate - thank you for the comment about 1 minute difference...

Due to rounding Chitrapaksha about a minute of arc ahead of Lahiri. IAW Chitrapaksha your Asc is 4Sc40 and Moon 19Li59 according to my software SJS9. but, yeah I hear yah, onesies twosies, Libra or Scorpio. Whats a minute of arc between friends

James wrote:

I have solar fire and they offer the vedic dasas.. i happened to notice the venus dasa started in 2003.. this was an important turning point in my life and very positive... if i use lahari it seems slightly less accurate then krisnamurti .. lahari says venus dasa starts april 10th, 2003, while krisnamurti says feb 26th 2003... i moved to where i am now and into a house that i 1/2 inherited in early march 2003.. not sure if this helps confirm krisnamurti system is more accurate or not..

Yes!! This is a perfect example of why I switched from Lahiri to Krishnamurti a long time ago. I tested the start of Dasas and sub-periods over the years with different charts. Thank you for this example!!

K. S. Krishnamurti made the (slightly less than 6 minute) adjustment from Lahiri after testing precise minutes in daily events, such as the delivery of mail at a certain time. Martin Gansten also uses the Krishnamurti ayanamsa. Ronnie Dryer does too, I believe.

With Krishnamurti, your Moon is solidly into Scorpio by 4 minutes.

aj and therese,

thank you! a minute here and a minute there.. next thing you know your life is over!!

it makes me think of the importance or not of the symbolism we use in astrology... how much weight do we give a planets position in a sign verses a nakshastra for example? obviously a planets position next to an angle is important.. how does it get altered with a change in the sign, or nakshastra? and on and on the questions arise in the mind of a student of astrology..

it is interesting for me the issue of aspects as they relate to indian astrology... if moon in scorpio, then moon is now in an aspect relationship with some of the other planets.. when it is in libra - not so much.. it is challenging to think so much could change via 1 or 2 minutes, but if one is to follow the rules, i think this is what one has to work with.. i am not complaining, but making an observation on it all.. aspects are based off sign relationships, although i know they have a system in india which also works with specific degrees of aspects - tajika?

i am just thinking of any other questions i have related to all this, but can't think of any.. thanks for all the help everyone has provided on the questions i have raised here... regards - james

AJ wrote:

Therese Hamilton wrote:AJ wrote:
Would this one minute increase or decrease the Lahiri ayanamsa? That is, would the one minute increase or decrease the longitudes of planets in charts?

Increases.

Well, it depends on the period of the year. There are probably astronomical values I am not aware of that explain this. From my experience, it is always with 1'30" from Lahiri, plus or minus.

It only becomes interesting with higher vargas and, perhaps, for personal experiments... Surya Siddhanta (at least modern editions) always believed Spica to be in the middle of Chitta nakshatra... In any case, Lahiri is safe...

james_m wrote: it is interesting for me the issue of aspects as they relate to indian astrology... if moon in scorpio, then moon is now in an aspect relationship with some of the other planets.. when it is in libra - not so much.. it is challenging to think so much could change via 1 or 2 minutes, but if one is to follow the rules, i think this is what one has to work with.. i am not complaining, but making an observation on it all.. aspects are based off sign relationships, although i know they have a system in india which also works with specific degrees of aspects - tajika?

James: Don't misunderstand, there are a few schools of Hindu astrology that only consider sign based aspects but on the whole, this is not correct. Anyone I know doing serious work in Parashari, including myself use the actual angular separation of the planets. The closer the aspect the stronger the influence.

Parashara says in the Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra* (BPHS for short) or rather explains in Chapter 28 of the Sagar edition that whole sign aspects are taught to learners. Parashara goes on to say, "These are the aspects (drishti) of the planets which were explained ordinarily by the ancient preceptors. The aspect that is based on the planetary position, etc. that aspect is called the Ati Sphuta aspect.’ Ati Sphuta here refers to the exact longitude. (Another word used in the classics is Spashta and means the same as Sphuta, celestial longitude).

Out of sign aspects are can also be considered, but this too is not universally followed.

So whole sign aspects are an approximation of the more exact aspects.

BPHS has very particular rules for calculating the exact aspect from any degree position of a planet to any other degree where the aspected planet/degree stands.
_____________________________________
‘Tajik’ literally means from Tajikistan, or it can be loosely read as meaning Arabian, maybe even Persian. This system of astrology was imported into India with the Mogul invasion, perhaps even earlier. Over the following centuries, the Tajika system integrated itself into the Indian Parashari tradition and has a large number of practitioners. Overall, the system is logical, quick and most importantly it is reliable once the principles are understood.

It's a poor generalization but you can think of Tajika as traditional western but with the sidereal zodiac. Mostly used in horary and the Annual Solar Return or Varshphal.

There are many streams that run into the river of Hindu astrology, that's what makes it so hard to learn. Find one teacher, writer or guru and follow their particular brand for at least six months learning their approach will make the learning easier. Even if you find later you don't jive with their method or parts of it at least you have a rather fixed system to test against. Everyone eventually strikes out on their own once they find out what works for them.

*You have to be careful with BPHS as it has a lot of non-original or corrupt material in it. Some editions have more material than the others too. A Sanskrit pundit I have been emailing about this very issue is of the opinion that Chapters 28-30 are likely authentic, as well as most of the earlier chapters on the basic nature of the signs, houses, and planets etc. I really would like to post his whole list of what he believes are the "more authentic" parts of the BPHS but his work is still in MSS form and not published yet.
Also see Mark's link to an article on this very subject: https://shyamasundaradasa.com/jyotish/r ... /bphs.html This article includes a list of what the author feels could be authentic portions of BPHS.

quote="carriere.francois" wrote][/b]

AJ wrote:

Therese Hamilton wrote:AJ wrote:
Would this one minute increase or decrease the Lahiri ayanamsa? That is, would the one minute increase or decrease the longitudes of planets in charts?

Increases.

Well, it depends on the period of the year. There are probably astronomical values I am not aware of that explain this. From my experience, it is always with 1'30" from Lahiri, plus or minus.

Hmmm... This is not correct. The value of ayanamsa does not oscillate plus or minus for different periods of the year, Chitrapaksa compared to Lahiri or not. You might check if your software is computing the ayanamsa correctly.

Most ayanamshas are defined by a milestone or epoch with a first offset value for that ayanamsha. This does not oscillate with the time of year or seasons. Chitrapaksa since it is referenced to a fixed star you must know its precise position so it does not quite work like a regular ayanamsa offset. If you want Chitra, or the star Spica as it is known in the west, at 180 degrees you must calculate the tropical position of the star for the date and then subtract it from the tropical position of the planet or another sensitive point. This too is not affected by any oscillation due to the "period of the year".

Below are two sets of calculations for the ascendant at Washinton DC for the first day of the month for the next three years at 0600 hours. Note that the difference between Lahiri and Chitrpaksha has Chitrapaksha usually about one arc minute ahead of Lahiri in the final calc. There is no plus or minus oscillation and the difference is not over an arc minute. When they are the same it is due to rounding, because the difference between them is not quite an arc minute. The actual difference is around 50 or 51 arc seconds if I remember right. The values are the degrees and minutes rather than to the second as it was just not worth the time to calculate to that degree of precision. Also, considering we are lucky to have a birth time accurate to a minute in time, calculating to the minute of arc is fine. At the end of the day, you really can't be more accurate than your original input data. One minute in time is equal to a quarter of a degree or 15 arc minutes.

I wanted to align them side by side but cannot do a table in the editor. Note that over three years the values of Chiitrapaksa do not...
"...depends on the period of the year. ...is always with 1'30" from Lahiri, plus or minus".

Washington Ascendant Lahiri
1/ 1/2019 Mo 6:00 25°30'Sc
2/ 1/2019 Th 6:00 24°30'Sg
3/ 1/2019 Th 6:00 29° 2'Cp
4/ 1/2019 Su 6:00 23°17'Aq
5/ 1/2019 Tu 6:00 11° 9'Ar
6/ 1/2019 Sa 6:00 19°16'Ta
7/ 1/2019 Mo 6:00 17° 1'Ge
8/ 1/2019 We 6:00 12° 3'Ca
9/ 1/2019 Sa 6:00 6°20'Le
10/ 1/2019 Mo 6:00 0° 4'Vg
11/ 1/2019 Th 6:00 24°42'Vg
12/ 1/2019 Sa 6:00 0°13'Sc
1/ 1/2020 Tu 6:00 25°17'Sc
2/ 1/2020 Fr 6:00 24°13'Sg
3/ 1/2020 Sa 6:00 0° 7'Aq
4/ 1/2020 Tu 6:00 24°30'Aq
5/ 1/2020 Th 6:00 12°14'Ar
6/ 1/2020 Mo 6:00 20° 2'Ta
7/ 1/2020 We 6:00 17°39'Ge
8/ 1/2020 Fr 6:00 12°38'Ca
9/ 1/2020 Mo 6:00 6°55'Le
10/ 1/2020 We 6:00 0°39'Vg
11/ 1/2020 Sa 6:00 7°18'Li
12/ 1/2020 Mo 6:00 0°48'Sc
1/ 1/2021 Th 6:00 25°55'Sc
2/ 1/2021 Su 6:00 25° 1'Sg
3/ 1/2021 Su 6:00 29°45'Cp
4/ 1/2021 We 6:00 24° 5'Aq
5/ 1/2021 Fr 6:00 11°52'Ar
6/ 1/2021 Tu 6:00 19°46'Ta
7/ 1/2021 Th 6:00 17°26'Ge
8/ 1/2021 Sa 6:00 12°26'Ca
9/ 1/2021 Tu 6:00 6°42'Le
10/ 1/2021 Th 6:00 0°27'Vg
11/ 1/2021 Su 6:00 25° 4'Vg
12/ 1/2021 Tu 6:00 0°36'Sc

Washington Ascendant Chitrapaksa
1/ 1/2019 Mo 6:00 25°31'Sc
2/ 1/2019 Th 6:00 24°30'Sg
3/ 1/2019 Th 6:00 29° 3'Cp
4/ 1/2019 Su 6:00 23°17'Aq
5/ 1/2019 Tu 6:00 11°10'Ar
6/ 1/2019 Sa 6:00 19°16'Ta
7/ 1/2019 Mo 6:00 17° 2'Ge
8/ 1/2019 We 6:00 12° 4'Ca
9/ 1/2019 Sa 6:00 6°21'Le
10/ 1/2019 Mo 6:00 0° 5'Vg
11/ 1/2019 Th 6:00 24°43'Vg
12/ 1/2019 Sa 6:00 0°14'Sc
1/ 1/2020 Tu 6:00 25°18'Sc
2/ 1/2020 Fr 6:00 24°14'Sg
3/ 1/2020 Sa 6:00 0° 8'Aq
4/ 1/2020 Tu 6:00 24°30'Aq
5/ 1/2020 Th 6:00 12°15'Ar
6/ 1/2020 Mo 6:00 20° 3'Ta
7/ 1/2020 We 6:00 17°40'Ge
8/ 1/2020 Fr 6:00 12°39'Ca
9/ 1/2020 Mo 6:00 6°56'Le
10/ 1/2020 We 6:00 0°40'Vg
11/ 1/2020 Sa 6:00 7°20'Li
12/ 1/2020 Mo 6:00 0°49'Sc
1/ 1/2021 Th 6:00 25°56'Sc
2/ 1/2021 Su 6:00 25° 2'Sg
3/ 1/2021 Su 6:00 29°46'Cp
4/ 1/2021 We 6:00 24° 6'Aq
5/ 1/2021 Fr 6:00 11°53'Ar
6/ 1/2021 Tu 6:00 19°47'Ta
7/ 1/2021 Th 6:00 17°27'Ge
8/ 1/2021 Sa 6:00 12°27'Ca
9/ 1/2021 Tu 6:00 6°43'Le
10/ 1/2021 Th 6:00 0°28'Vg
11/ 1/2021 Su 6:00 25° 6'Vg
12/ 1/2021 Tu 6:00 0°37'Sc

hi aj,

thanks for your additional comments on the topic of aspects and etc.. i had read that article a few weeks ago that you linked to and which mark had originally shared.. i found it quite interesting.. it seems that BPHS has been elevated to a degree that might be unfounded - at least that is what i got from the article...

with regard to aspects, my impression is there are a few different approaches, and i am not sure which approach is the most common one.. i was curious and intrigued by what i have read about the type of aspects that mars, jupiter and saturn can make.. it sounds like other types of aspects are excluded.. do i have that correct? for example - mars can only make a square, or the 8th house type aspect.. jupiter only seems to make trines... saturn can make sextiles... the opposition and conjunction - all planets can make, but after that it seems to get qualified... do i have this correct?

these ideas on aspects are what i am reading in the ''light on life'' book that mark had recommended some time ago...

james_m wrote: with regard to aspects, my impression is there are a few different approaches, and i am not sure which approach is the most common one.. i was curious and intrigued by what i have read about the type of aspects that mars, jupiter and saturn can make.. it sounds like other types of aspects are excluded.. do i have that correct? for example - mars can only make a square, or the 8th house type aspect.. jupiter only seems to make trines... saturn can make sextiles... the opposition and conjunction - all planets can make, but after that it seems to get qualified... do i have this correct?

Hi James: I think you got it. But here is a write up for your reference.

At its simplest and most effective, aspects are considered in longitude and are considered either partial or full. Slower planets can make aspects to the faster. Aspects in Hindu astrology are called drishti, or glance. So, any planet can glance at another according to the rules below.

Partial aspects are weaker, whereas full aspects are strong. Most Jyotishis only consider the full aspects. There are some minor variations on the scheme but usually only regarding the fine points of the secondary, or partial aspects, here is the full blown version.

Full Aspects
Each planet is aspects fully the seventh house, reckoned from its placement or the opposition aspect of western astrology. Consequently, the seventh house is counted from the placement of the planet, including the house it resides in.

The sign order of reckoning all the aspects in Hindu astrology is important, unlike western astrology and Tajika.

In addition to the seventh aspect, planets posited outside the orbit of the earth as well as Rahu and Ketu have additional special full aspects:*
Saturn aspects third and tenth houses from its location. sextile and square
Mars aspects fourth and eight houses from its location. Square and inconjunct.
Jupiter, Rahu and Ketu aspect fifth and ninth houses from their location. Trine.

Secondary or Partial Aspects
There are aspects of secondary importance that most astrologers ignore that do not have a full effect even when exact. I use them once in a great while, and then mostly only the fourth house aspect which is equivalent to the western square aspect. When exact, a three-quarter effect can be strong enough to influence judgment.

All planets aspect the third and tenth houses from themselves, this is the 60° sextile aspect and the 90° square, and have a one-quarter effect.

All planets aspect the fifth and ninth houses from themselves, this is the 120° trine aspect and has a one-half effect.

All planets aspect the fourth house and eighth house and has a three-quarter effect. I find the 8th house aspect redundant except in the case of Mars where it is a special aspect. The eighth house aspect would be the same as an inconjunct aspect of 150°.

Technically in Hindu astrology, conjunctions are not considered aspects as in western astrology but are ???associated.??? In practice, this distinction makes little difference.
________________________________
*there are different opinions on the aspects of Rahu and Ketu. Some say they do not have aspects, others say only Rahu for example. There are a couple of other arrangements for Rahu and Ketu aspects out there too. I find the 5th and 9th aspects of Rahu and Ketu very significant but are by their nature, a fifth and ninth house (trine influence) after all and are not quite as severe as a planet or bhava madhya** being caught up in the Rahu/Ketu axis.

** bhava madhya is the house center or cusp in Hindu astrology. Note that house boundaries in Hindu astrology are different than western astrology. The beginning of the house is not the cusp, but rather is the center of the house. House boundaries are approximately 15 degrees on either side of the house center or bhava madhya depending on the house system used. House systems used in Hindu astrology is another discussion in and of itself.

3.16.19 Edited to add a little and correct some minor grammar plus a mistake. Thanks to James for catching my "duh" sextile degree error.