13 by Therese Hamilton Hi James, Thanks for joining in! I don't have computer time right now, but wanted to ask if you use the mean or so-called "true" node? Also, AJ, have you found one better than the other? Apparently Krishnamurti preferred the true node. Kullar uses that also. I was looking at the navamsha charts and i did happen to notice the close connection between harrys jupiter and meghans rasi ascendant.. is this kp technique?? No, just the ordinary comparison of charts. I always check the navamsa charts between people, navamsa to navamsa and navamsa to natal. More later when I have time. http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm Quote Thu May 16, 2019 3:23 am
14 by james_m hi therese, that is interesting about who uses the true verses the mean node... this came up in a conversation very recently... i have been using the mean node, as opposed to the true node.. the charts i post have the mean node on them... it can be as much as about 1-2 degrees out from the true node sometimes.. i can't remember what prash trivedi says in his rahu-ketu book.. let me go look... i can't find it and just running the first chart in the book he has for krishnamurti conflicts with the data adb has on krishnamurti.. funny enough in searching for that thread, i found a quote from you! you quoted fleurs comment, before making your comment.. "Fleur wrote: Quote: The effect of the Nodes can be stunningly measurable, especially when they are transiting. And I have found that overwhelmingly it is the Mean Node which is significant, not the "True" Node." It's interesting that Celeste Teal writes in her book: So in both cases the positions of the [mean and true] nodes are generally somewhat of an approximation, and they are never far apart from one another, within a degree or so. Due to their consistent retrograde motion, the mean lunar nodes are most relevant for a study of karmic and spiritual implications in a natal chart. When used as a timing device in progressions, it is also the mean nodes that appear to be most accurate." i look forward to more from you later.. cheers james Quote Thu May 16, 2019 4:39 am
15 by Therese Hamilton James wrote: i do find the close aspect between archies moon and harrys north node compelling.. in fact, there are a number of cross aspects of significance between the 2 charts. i realize this doesn't help with meghan, archies or harry rectification, but i think a lot can be gotten off these cross aspects without knowing the exact ascendant degree.. I still use cross aspects between charts when comparing individuals. Meghans part of fortune lands right on the same degree as archies moon Interesting also that the Moon is lord of Archie's 4th house, said to be the house of the mother. This has to be a beneficial contact. and harrys north node as well for what that is worth... archies ascendant is exactly square meghans sun.. Or looking at it another way as AJ pointed out: Meghan's Sun is on Archie's nadir, equal midpoint of the 4th house. meghans ascendant is slightly more then a degree away from exact opposition to archies pluto.. Out of sign, however. I generally give less emphasis to out-of-sign aspects. Meghans venus is within a degree of trine - 5th house - archies ascendant.. this is again repeated given how close the sun is in archies chart to the ascendant.. There should be strong affection between them, though Archie and Meghan are very different people (Suns in square). . i believe i understand what the technique is that you are using therese, but i might only understand part of it... it would be good to see research work using this technique in the manner linchi shares with us, in order to appreciate it more... thanks for sharing! I'm having major trouble with the software I need for the rectification technique. I asked if there was an upgrade (company in India) and they sent an upgrade download link without informing me it was for Windows 10. My computer is XP which I use to keep AstroDatabank running. So the software messed up parts of XP, and now the program isn't running correctly. (After uninstalling the new version and re-installing the old version.) I'm waiting to see if there is a way to get XP and the program back to normal. Thank you for your comments on the nodes. I have always favored the mean nodes, but my own chart presents the problem that Ketu changes nakshatras between mean and true nodes. Using the KP technique of nakshatra lords being activated by resident planets, in this case only the true node works well. Also the more accurate node according to the authors of the Betz ephemeris which in this case is closer to the true node, in Mercury's star (Reveti). http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm Quote Thu May 16, 2019 6:03 am
16 by james_m thanks for the additional comments therese.. i hope your astro software challenges disappear soon! i never gave it much thought regarding the mean, verses true node with regard to the divisional charts, or vargas... this will change it substantially as i understand it.. Quote Fri May 17, 2019 8:59 pm
17 by Therese Hamilton I haven't been able to check the Khullar rectification yet, but I used Parshara's Light 7 to calculate shad bala, and it's very interesting that Archie's Jupiter is very low compared to the other planets, only 70 percent. The Sun's shad bala is 1.49 percent. All planets are above average except Jupiter. Meghan's Jupiter is also below average, 88 percent. Prince Harry's Saturn is extremely high, 1.69 percent. His other planets hover around average. James, you have been reading a book on Shad Bala. Do the authors go into their view on how they interpret planets using shad bala values?? Some years ago a man wrote a book claiming that the shad bala of planets revealed the planets that Edgar Cayce said were key planets for individuals. (These are different for each person, and were related to psychology.) I don't remember the author's name, but the book is probably somewhere in one of my bookcases. AJ, any comments from your experience are welcome! http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm Quote Sat May 18, 2019 11:15 pm
18 by james_m hi therese, yes, they do go into all the different aspects to shadbala and how these scores are arrived at.. it is more complicated then not, and too complicated for me to articulate in a post to you here.. i think there are 8 or more ways and inside these 8 or more ways, there are subsets inside each one as well sometimes... this is why i was pondering getting some software to do it, although, i am not convinced of the effectiveness of this either, as unless i properly understand the basis of it, i am less inclined to use it.. take planetary phase for example.. it is an idea embedded in astrology, but there is very little talk about it other then when planets are combust the sun... what about when the outer 3 - mars, jupiter or saturn is 60 degrees behind or in front of the sun?? is this a strong planetary phase, or not? how does it differ from some other aspectual position to the sun? the inner planets mercury and venus are different of course.. generally no one talks about this or seems to factor it in, in their analysis of the strength or weakness of the planet... here is another one - retrograde planets.. if you read most traditional astrology, retro is considered a serious liability.. indian astrology seems to view this noticeably different... who is right, or is there some truth in both perspectives that require a deeper understanding? presently i think the later, but i have nothing to prove it to you.. in order to understand something better i think one needs to understand all the moving parts! lets say a planet is strong by planetary phase, assuming for the moment we know what this means, how do we add in sign and house position?? how do we add in where the planet is in connection with the angles of a chart? shadbala rules say for example that saturn is strongest in the descendant, while mars and sun are strongest in the midhevaen, and etc. etc. .. who is factoring in all these observations in some weighted manner when they do astrology? how about moon, saturn and mars are stronger at night then in the day and etc. etc. ?? i think this is why falling back on software to generate shadbala is a good and a bad thing.. unless the astrologer understands the basis for it, they are relying on something they know very little about.. it was worth it to read the book on shadbala and i may go back to it.. it is complex though, so it is a bit of a study in itself.. i have been staying focused on understanding the navamsha still.. it is also much more complicated then it might seem... i have been reading up on rasi tulya navamsha and its side kick - which i think is called tulya rasi navamsha.. the first one is where you take the ascendant from the natal chart and impose the planets from the navamsha into the natal ascendant set up.. the other one is the reverse - take the navamsha ascendant and put the natal planets in the navamsha ascendant set up.. these charts are also used along with a myriad of different techniques to arrive at a prediction! frankly - it is all quite mind boggling! one could spend a lifetime learning all of the ins and outs of indian astrology... maybe after a while one just settles into a particular position, or not.. how about this - using navamsha charts to know which dasa is going to open up when?? up until a few days ago, i figured dasas were relevant at the approx time they become active... this book on navamsha is taking a different tack then this, or making it more complicated... sorry for getting off track here.. these are just some random thoughts for tonight... cheers james Quote Sun May 19, 2019 5:20 am
19 by AJ james_m wrote:all the different aspects to shadbala and how these scores are arrived at.. it is more complicated then not, and too complicated for me to articulate in a post to you here.. i think there are 8 or more ways and inside these 8 or more ways, there are subsets inside each one as well sometimes... this is why i was pondering getting some software to do it, although, i am not convinced of the effectiveness of this either, as unless i properly understand the basis of it, i am less inclined to use it.. Hi James and Therese: As you point out James, Shadbala is a rather complex computation with fifteen or so components that can be classified into six divisions. The total of all these gives the calculated strength for the planet. Some of these are easy to compute and some are very obscure which is why different traditions and software calculate them differently. Taking Archies chart as an example. Therese wrote: Archie's Jupiter is very low compared to the other planets, only 70 percent. The Sun's shad bala is 1.49 percent. All planets are above average except Jupiter. Meghan's Jupiter is also below average, 88 percent. Prince Harry's Saturn is extremely high, 1.69 percent. My software calculates it much the same having Jupiter lowest except Mecury is the same as Jupiter! My point here I guess is be really careful with shadbala as it's a bit of a red herring IMO as it rarely gives a true picture of the working strength and weakness of planets in a chart. Again taking Archies chart as an example. In my software the shadbala calcualtion of Saturn is the same as the Moon and both are second only in strength to the Sun. I consider Saturn as Archies weakest planet due to its dispositer extremely weak in late degrees, gandhanta, and exactly afflicted by Ketu. The aspect from Mars hardly helps to stengthen Jupiter. Jupiter gets more help by being lord of the ninth. Jupiter is maybe actually running at quarter strength here and Saturn is even worse. James wrote:frankly - it is all quite mind boggling! one could spend a lifetime learning all of the ins and outs of indian astrology... maybe after a while one just settles into a particular position, or not.. how about this - using navamsha charts to know which dasa is going to open up when?? Another caution I guess... Sorry. One of the main problems in Indian astrology or Jyotish is the large proportion of refining techniques available. Most of these methods are arcane and redundant that end up misleading the student into ignoring the more important and basic astrology that’s going on. The most important thing for the student to learn is the thinking process of applying basic Jyotish principles in a certain, but meaningful way. A Jyotish logic if you will. The are lots of limitations and contradictions to classical principles. Frankly, gurus (teachers) is a must in my opinion to learning it. Be well. Quote Sun May 19, 2019 1:47 pm
20 by james_m thanks aj, clearly there are a number of paths to take in astrology, but which one is most connected to reality, knowing how hard that is to define?? you mention saturn weak in archies chart for the reasons you do.. in my limited observations on saturn in the 10th, - 9th whole sign, but 10th given it's proximity to the midheaven degree, this is generally always a strong position which reaps rewards.. i say this when found in 10th solar house as well, which is not the case with archies chart, but just based on my own observation.. so, what does strong and weak really mean? lets look at another royal british family chart... based on this concept of planets in early and late degrees, the chart would imply a lot of ''weakness' in some regards, maybe offset by the strength of a few of the planets in exaltation...the fact that queen elizabeth has ruled for as long as she has it testimony to something strong in her chart! it can't be the ruler of her ascendant, or the ascendant degree, lol... what must it be?? i guess we can fall back on mutual reception.. that's it, lol... it seems to me astrology is very subjective in picking and choosing what to apply and when... Quote Sun May 19, 2019 4:31 pm
21 by Therese Hamilton AJ and James, I'm in the process of replying to thoughts in your posts, but for now a quick comment regarding Queen Elizabeth II: James wrote: Lets look at another royal british family chart... based on this concept of planets in early and late degrees, the chart would imply a lot of ''weakness' in some regards, maybe offset by the strength of a few of the planets in exaltation...the fact that queen elizabeth has ruled for as long as she has it testimony to something strong in her chart! it can't be the ruler of her ascendant, or the ascendant degree, lol... what must it be?? i guess we can fall back on mutual reception.. that's it, lol... The queen's chart is an example of how the navamsa can fill in blanks left by the natal chart. If we place the navamsa planets around the natal chart, we find Elizabeth's natal ascendant lord Jupiter at 28 Virgo 33, precisely at the zenith of her natal chart. Her ascendant degree as given is 28 Sag 39. We really need this precision in degree for Elizabeth's chart. Navamsa Saturn is also conjunct natal Moon (4 degree orb). Consider what that means in relation to Elizabeth's psychology. Navamsa Moon falls on the natal ascendant, orb 4 degrees. Natal 5th lord (children) Mars conjoins the Lot of Fortune (3 degree orb). Natal Venus conjoins the Sun (4 degree orb). All these conjunctions are very relevant to Elizabeth's life, and we're not paying attention to myriad (and confusing) other details in the natal chart. James, you're great at posting graphics, so a bi-wheel would be helpful here. Thanks! Elizabeth's ascendant is also vargottama. The (Krishnamurti) navamsa ascendant is 17 Sag 54 (Solar Fire 5). http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm Quote Sun May 19, 2019 7:54 pm
22 by james_m hi therese, your comments are confirmed in the chart for queen elizabeth natal inside and navamsha on the outside as seen below.... you're right! it is quite easy for me to post these charts as i am doing and i am happy to do it.. hi aj i want to come back to some of what you said in your last comment.. AJ wrote: The most important thing for the student to learn is the thinking process of applying basic Jyotish principles in a certain, but meaningful way. A Jyotish logic if you will. The are lots of limitations and contradictions to classical principles. Frankly, gurus (teachers) is a must in my opinion to learning it. Be well. it is interesting you say this.. i am not sure what to say about it, but i appreciate you qualifying it with the word opinion!! thanks for that.. you might be right... Quote Mon May 20, 2019 12:10 am
23 by AJ james_m wrote:you mention saturn weak in archies chart for the reasons you do.. in my limited observations on saturn in the 10th, - 9th whole sign, but 10th given it's proximity to the midheaven degree, this is generally always a strong position which reaps rewards.. i say this when found in 10th solar house as well, which is not the case with archies chart, but just based on my own observation.. Saturn is very strong in the tenth house, see Srila Prabhupada horoscope for an example. In digbala, Sa is traditionally strongest in the 7th. In Archie's chart, this is simply blown away by other conditions that weaken it, especially the exact affliction by Ketu. It's a grave configuration. so, what does strong and weak really mean? I would have to write a couple of chapters to cover the systematic rules determining weak and strong planets and houses but in a nutshell. A strong planet can easily promote it's natural and particular significations. A weak planet cannot... or only to the degree of its strength. I personally don't like the terms strong and weak and malefic and benefic etc. They don't describe reality in many instances. For example, we speak of a planet in the sixth house as badly placed and weak, but to presuppose this means it won't function well is a grave mistake. Let's say its the 10th lord in the 6th, everything else being equal, this could simply mean that the professional life would just have more disputes than ordinarily encountered and they would win more than lose. Weak planets are more pre-occupied than feeble, more distracted than focused in my opinion. Again could write a whole chapter on the whole benefic/malefic, strong/weak thing. lets look at another royal british family chart... based on this concept of planets in early and late degrees, the chart would imply a lot of ''weakness' in some regards, maybe offset by the strength of a few of the planets in exaltation...the fact that queen elizabeth has ruled for as long as she has it testimony to something strong in her chart! it can't be the ruler of her ascendant, or the ascendant degree, lol... what must it be?? i guess we can fall back on mutual reception.. that's it, lol... Therese has given a good exposition on the navamsas role so no need to go there, but heres a few quick observations on the natal... neecha (fallen) Ju asc ruler is exactly conjoined with exalted Ma right on the exaltation degree of Mars and both rule good houses; this conjunction really magnifies Ju. Moon is strong in the 8th. Sun is exalted owns the ninth and in the fifth house. Mercury is neecha (fallen) but Ju aspects the tenth house and Ju/Ma in Vi in D9. Saturn is magnified in the 12th due to ruling the third house, highest exaltation Ma helps too, which in turn raises ordinary Ve in Aq besides. The Nodal axis falling across the asc/desc causes some trouble but the strength of all of her other planets keeps this to minimum to mostly bother her in their dashas and transits. it seems to me astrology is very subjective in picking and choosing what to apply and when... Shivas curse... Not neccesarily, there are systems that cut through lots of the background noise. That's why I believe to learn Jyotish a teacher(s) are necessary. Om namah Shiva As Sgt shultz would say on the old Hogan's Hero's tv show, "I know nothing... noth_ing." Quote Mon May 20, 2019 2:07 pm
24 by james_m thanks for your many comments aj.. i appreciate it! i think one has to figure out a lot of it for themselves starting with their own chart and working with charts of people they know really well.. it becomes more nebulous when looking at people we don't know... that is my impression.. this is another reason astro research is helpful. i see queen elizabeth as this person who has been able to hold it all together for what seems like forever... it would be a real challenge to hold this mask up for as long as she has, but she clearly has a talent for it! mask - saturn.. it has probably been very difficult too, but of that we hear nothing or very little.. it is interesting some of the theories i am being given on the importance of the navamsha in connection with the rasi chart... in this chart - clearly moon is strong by being in cancer rasi and on the ascendant via the navamsha chart... it all seems to put emphasis on the 8th - holding onto ones inheritance with tenacity! but then there is saturn in the navamsha on rasi moon implying a strong burden that goes with it too.. i am going to have to look at a lot more charts before i can say much with confidence when utilizing both the d1 and d9 charts.. thanks for your comments james Quote Mon May 20, 2019 4:34 pm