Therese Hamilton wrote:AJ wrote:

My astrological parampara is Ayyala Somayajulu Ganapathi Sastry.

Parampara = Tradition or lineage
Ayyala Somayajulu Ganapathi Sastry (Ganapati Muni as I understand?) died in 1936. Who carried on the tradition, so can you tell us who was your guru/teacher?

Sri Surya Murthy (1912-1989).

Edith Hathaway’s take on Graha Yuddha
Some Observations...

I’ve extracted the following determinants of which planet is the winner in a planetary war from Edith Hathaway's article on Graha Yuddha: Testing the Parameters of Astrology and Astronomy By Edith Hathaway (see source note below). I thought I would comment on a few of them as there are some inconsistencies from my point of view:

“The winner of the Graha Yuddha is dependent on these factors, in descending order:
1) Size and influence of the planet.
2) Effulgence, or brightness.
3) Speed of orbital motion.
4) If the victorious planet (as determined by factors # 1 through 3 above) is also situated north of the defeated planet, by either celestial longitude, declination, or latitudes – but especially by declination – then it is also usually the decisive winner. However, the winner may also be to the south.
5) Mars is a special exception, being generally the loser in Graha Yuddha, even when it is situated further north, or is bigger or temporarily faster than the other planet. And as the planet of war, it does not lose easily! Mars as the vanquished planet in Graha Yuddha can cause particular havoc. “

Her first and most important rule is out of place in this context and also doesn't make sense to me in the way that she applies it. If you read her situational section just below the above criteria,
“...what happens most of the time in Graha Yuddha???
1) Saturn wins most often due to its greater influence. With its multiple rings, it spans a greater distance than Jupiter, even if Jupiter has greater mass. In addition, as planet of Karma, Saturn dominates over Jupiter, planet of Dharma.
[This philosophical point can be disputed, Dharma rightly applied, overcomes or burns Karma. “Even he with the worst of karma who ceaselessly meditates on Me quickly loses the effects of his past bad actions. Becoming a high-souled being, he soon attains perennial peace. Arjuna, know this for certain: the devotee who puts his trust in Me never perishes!??? Bhagavad Gita, IX, 30-31]
2) Jupiter wins over Venus by its size, even though Venus is brighter than Jupiter. Other than our Sun & Moon, Venus is the brightest object in the sky, as seen from earth.

Further down she goes on to say under a Summary of general principles,
“Summary of general principles: On the top level, Saturn can conquer the other four planets by virtue of its orb of influence and its size. Saturn possesses the largest and most complex ring system of any planet???….
…???Below Saturn, Jupiter has advantage by its size, winning out over the remaining planets except for Saturn. On the next level down, Venus has advantage by virtue of its effulgence, winning out over Mercury and Mars. On the lowest rung of influence, Mercury has advantage over Mars due to its speed. Thus, Mars is the one planet conspicuously without advantage at any of these levels.... “

Graha Yuddha is an ancient concept appearing in many early Jyotish classics that with little imagination is clearly based on observational interpretation. It's very clear that Edith Hathaway is using modern astronomical discoveries unknown to the ancients for this her main determination of the winner in Graha Yuddha. What is even more puzzling is that Hathaway puts this modern fact ahead of the ancient primary determiner of victory, apparent magnitude (Hathaway describes as effulgence, or brightness).

In the Suryasiddhanta*, the averaged visual diameters (more properly angular diameter) of the planets were not much more than an arc minute in diameter for the Tara Grahas**, or “star planets,??? which was much the same as the fixed stars. The relative and changing brightness of the planets is one of the features along with their changeable path against the fixed stars in the heavens that define them as “wanderers??? or planets in ancient times. Pre-telescopic societies had no idea of the true sizes (mass or diameter) of the planets relying only on relative visual brightness. Even if the diameter of a planet is a true criterion for judging which planet wins in planetary war I call into serious question using the modern understanding of this as a postulate of planetary war since it has no foundation in traditional astrological practice. To invoke the rings of Saturn to trump Jupiter the largest planet seems odd too since other than with a telescope this is completely unknown before 1600. It took decades after Galileo in 1616 to resolve that the extra stuff around Saturn was indeed a ring system (Huygens, 1655). This is long after the classical Jyotish texts were written.

It is Hathaway’s first primary consideration using the physical diameter for planetary war that I stumble over preventing me from accepting Edith Hathaway’s method. Further, she claims this principle is,
“…also consistent with most of the classics, especially the text given later on from the Brihat Samhita by Varahamihira.???
I beg to differ. The primary criterion of a planet's diameter as presented by Hathaway is untenable as being consistent with the ancient texts since this was unknown to them. All the ancients could observe was the apparent magnitude between the “Starry Grahas??? Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn as pointed out above.

It seems to me Hathaway has arbitrarily added to the top of the ancient list the modern discoveries of the physical diameter of the planets as the most important criteria for determining which planet wins a planetary war.

Perhaps this is a valid rule that she has discovered but it flies in the face of the traditional viewpoint. This major fault in Jyotish logic calls into question the whole of her method to determine the winner in Graha Yuddha.

The other point on her list that bothers me is number 5,
“ 5) Mars is a special exception, being generally the loser in Graha Yuddha, even when it is situated further north, or is bigger or temporarily faster than the other planet. And as the planet of war, it does not lose easily! Mars as the vanquished planet in Graha Yuddha can cause particular havoc. “ (Hathaway 2010)

Putting aside Hathaway’s questionable first criteria for declaring a victor in planetary war, I don’t see why Mars should be “generally the loser??? as it can be equal in brightness to Jupiter and often outshines Saturn and Mercury. Venus, of course, is the brightest heavenly body besides the Sun and Moon and in most Graha Yuddha systems is the victor.

Another inconsistent statement follows the first, “...as the planet of war, it does not lose easily!??? but yet Hathaway just stated before that Mars is “generally the loser???

I’ve presented my main reasons I have serious doubts about Edith Hathaway's method of determining the victor in Graha Yuddha, or planetary war.

Notes:
* The Surya Siddhanta is the name of a Sanskrit treatise in Indian astronomy from the late 4th-century or early 5th-century CE.
** Tara Grahas or also Vakri Grahas are those planets of the Solar System other than the Sun and the Moon that appear to retrograde (move backward).

Reference:
Graha Yuddha: Testing the Parameters of Astrology and Astronomy By Edith Hathaway (Copyright © 2003, Revised & expanded 2010)

Bhagavad Gita, IX, 30-31

AJ wrote:

I’ve presented my main reasons I have serious doubts about Edith Hathaway's method of determining the victor in Graha Yuddha, or planetary war.

Thank you, AJ, for your detailed critique of Edith Hathaway's article. I'm so glad you took the time to analyze her article because it bothered me so much that I never finished reading it. Her article is just another example of combining ancient and contemporary principles without really clearing up the difference between the two. And...sigh...this is what is happening to India's tradition in the west. And I suppose it's happening in India as well based on various sources I've seen in recent years.

However,...another topic....way back in the beginning of the astrological use of the twelve sign zodiac, it's obvious that much east/west mixing occurred. But India settled on basic principles and techniques that were carried through the centuries, but are now being changed and influenced by the thinking of modern astrologers.

Therese: I hope you don't mind. Just for fun, I took a screenshot from Stellarium (planetarium software) of the Saturn/Jupiter Graha Yuddha (conjunction) in Aries in your chart. I thought a visual would be enlightening to help look at the planetary war as early astronomer/astrologers would see it.
Just looking at it without any detailed rules or conditions instinctively I would say that Jupiter is the winner as it is both brighter and higher than Saturn.
Edited to scale the graphic down.

AJ, lovely screen shot!! Then how would you interpret Jupiter and Saturn if you were explaining the astrological results to someone? Would you separate personality from the quality of life in general? (I'm not sure how you interpret natal charts, whether strictly on the basis of events/life quality or include personality as well.)

It's interesting that both Jupiter and Saturn are in the same degree of the zodiac as beta Triangulum, and I've always considered trinal planetary relationships and houses in trine to be very important. Then mu Cetus is also in that degree...hmmm... Yes, Jupiter's aspect is the trine!

I don't suppose that you can shrink the sky graphic?

Therese Hamilton wrote:Then how would you interpret Jupiter and Saturn if you were explaining the astrological results to someone? Would you separate personality from the quality of life in general? (I'm not sure how you interpret natal charts, whether strictly on the basis of events/life quality or include personality as well.)

I'll have to come back to this one due to time and some due deliberation, but contrary to popular opinion Jataka does address personality, not just prediction. This often comes through in the delineation of the chart. It's just not the main focus or as detailed as in western psychological astrology.

I don't suppose that you can shrink the sky graphic?

Hi Therese: Check back on that post, I scaled the graphic down 50%.

AJ wrote:

Hi Therese: Check back on that post, I scaled the graphic down 50%.

Thank you!! Much better. For the record, my life has been generally fortunate (Jupiter), but my psychology is nothing like Jupiter--much more Saturnian.

Years ago I used to have Stellarium on my computer, but it acted like a beta test program. I'm sure it's much better today. I have two other sky programs now.

Therese Hamilton wrote:AJ wrote:

Hi Therese: Check back on that post, I scaled the graphic down 50%.

Thank you!! Much better. For the record, my life has been generally fortunate (Jupiter), but my psychology is nothing like Jupiter--much more Saturnian.

Years ago I used to have Stellarium on my computer, but it acted like a beta test program. I'm sure it's much better today. I have two other sky programs now.

Well right out of the delineation box one would expect that for a exact Jupiter/Saturn conjunction. Saturn's focus, discipline and order on Jupiter's effusive nature. Jupiter's wisdom with Saturn here would make you logical with a legal type of mind. Structure and control for this configuration come to mind especially since Saturn rules the third. Stubborn and a bit pessimistic too since both Jupiter and Saturn are disposited by weak Mercury in the 12th.
Debilitated Saturn benefits a lot from Jupiter but would be better if Jupiter were stronger. Being conjunct in Venus's Star it shows you love obtaining and giving knowledge.
Both Jupiter and Saturn are well placed but weakened giving some health concerns, lack of vitality, delay in attaining goals. Some problems communicating with others.
Asc in Mula causes you to follow the path of wisdom.

Stellarium is a nice program but it does have a few glitches I will admit. It's freeware. If I leave it running in the background it always freezes. Might be a RAM hog. I haven't watched to see if it gobbles up a lot of resources.

AJ wrote:

Stellarium is a nice program but it does have a few glitches I will admit. It's freeware. If I leave it running in the background it always freezes. Might be a RAM hog. I haven't watched to see if it gobbles up a lot of resources.

For astrologers who like to use a sky program, Skymap by Chris Marriott (not the on-line program of the same name) is a wonderful technical program, but doesn't have the beautiful visual screens that Stellarium has. But screens are attractive with colored stars and changing sky colors for different times of the day or night. With Skymap I can draw the ecliptic grid, RA/dec grid or Alt/Az grid....great for comparing where planets are in relation to these coordinate systems. I have an old version: Skymap Lite, 2003. Works great! These older programs tend to be very fast as they're not loaded with later bulky updates.

EDIT: 20 July 2019

.... since both Jupiter and Saturn are disposited by weak Mercury in the 12th.

???...Dispositor is Mars in Virgo, 10th. Or nakshatra (star) lord is Venus in Virgo, 10th.

It’s always difficult to choose the correct terms out of the many for planets that describe a person. I’m not pessimistic as such (for God runs the universe). More melancholy, sort of like if you go outdoors on a rainy day, there are gray clouds in the sky. They’re not pessimistic. They’re just there, describing the day. Often it’s a feeling of loneliness, being out of place, a stranger in a strange land (earth life). Generally having a scientific perspective (Saturn).

I’m not generally stubborn; my family nickname is “the embodiment of change.??? A strongly Jupitarian/Martian daughter considers this a great weakness. I’ve found the Gauquelin planetary keywords to be accurate. Two Gauquelin keywords for Jupiter are “authoritative??? and “obstinate.??? That is my daughter, completely unmovable. The Gauquelins give "stubborn" as a keyword for both Mars and Jupiter. I really think the Gauquelins are correct. Psychology is linked to individual planets. Find the planets that belong to each person, and you have their psychology.

Actually some aspects of Swati are fairly descriptive for my chart: “...flexible, adaptable...???, very interested in learning and education, artistic... (I was an artist in my younger days and taught art in the schools.) I’m not very disciplined, great at starting new paths, poor at finishing them. Vayu, God the the Wind. I can identify with that. Also Saraswati, though my personal deity is Kali (Saturn). (Swati notes from Kenneth Johnson, p. 96)

But I can sound decisive and firm (Mars Gauquelin keywords) in relation to astrology, the expression of Mercury in Scorpio in exchange with Mars in Virgo. I guess you could say that astrology is the child I care most about.

Related to AJ's post, I've continued the general topic if interpretation here:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 013#112013

Edith Hathaway * "Graha Yuddha"

Chakrapani said he used a different set of rules for Graha Yuddha given to him
years ago by his father, but further formulated over his own long career by use in his day-to-day
consulting practice. Since they proved to be accurate in his experience, I began research on this
topic, joined initially by Chakrapani.

While there seems to be joint conclusion here that Edith Hathaway as a westerner is doing something of low quality in her paper about Graha Yuddha, I think it is fair to remind that the origin of that comes from Chakrapani Ullal's parampara (lineage) and experience. So the critique could be extended to his contribution as well. Not knowing however exactly how much is from him though.

Otherwise I understand and can certainly relate to some of the critique.
Which seems logical. I have read the article again, which i have not done since some years ago.

But I also respect people's own experience in their practice doing masses of charts daily. Kn Rao who is certainly as well as Chakrapani a mostly respected astrologer in the community of Jyotishi's, is often seen leaving some of the classical parameters in favour of own personal experience.
Like Chakrapani he seems to be an astrologer who is gifted with very intuitive skills in his work.

Asc in Mula causes you to follow the path of wisdom.

Mula means 'root'. It often give the shakti to go to the bottom with things. Thorough approach. Not afraid of tearing down structures or conditions either to get to the essence. Some association with the goddess Kali, as Niritti is the ruling deity.

Stefan wrote:

Mula means 'root'. It often give the shakti to go to the bottom with things. Thorough approach. Not afraid of tearing down structures or conditions either to get to the essence. Some association with the goddess Kali, as Niritti is the ruling deity.

I'm always wanting to get to the fundamentals (roots) of the principles of interpretation. Sometimes we have to strip away the overlays to find the roots of the tree. It seems to me that we should be able to back up our statements with the foundation principles they are based on.

Yes, Kali is a daily presence in my life. (This can be felt as a threat by others.) But I think there has to be a particular emphasis on Ketu in the birth chart for Mula's qualities to fully manifest. But then since the 1990s there have been massive interpretation additions to the mansions by modern astrologers, mostly courtesy of Bepin Behari and David Frawley. So now I question everything about the 27 mansions, including how they are used as ascendant stars (presumed characteristics) and for placement of the Sun. But I do think that the equal 27-fold division of the ecliptic is a valid lunar zodiac. We just have to learn more about valid ways to use it.

http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/AANaks ... istory.htm
"Astrological Use of the 27 Lunar Mansions: Modern Innovation: A Review"

Yes, Kali is a daily presence in my life. (This can be felt as a threat by others.)

Yes that is noticable. Maybe as a practicing yogi as you said you are.
Making an effort to soften and letting go, would perhaps making the sidereal part of forum a more post conducive place to be...(not meant in an offensive way)...we all have our samskaras...I know.

ut then since the 1990s there have been massive interpretation additions to the mansions by modern astrologers, mostly courtesy of Bepin Behari and David Frawley. So now I question everything about the 27 mansions, including how they are used as ascendant stars (presumed characteristics) and for placement of the Sun. But I do think that the equal 27-fold division of the ecliptic is a valid lunar zodiac. We just have to learn more about valid ways to use it.

Using the symbols the shakti: the basis above: and basis below, the Deity: gives useful information imo.

Taking Trumps placement in magha and Jyeshta for example is revealing for his karmic destiny in this lifetime I think.