Skyscript Astrology Forum

Tanit3333 wrote:AJ - in Joytish do you use this system of lord of geniture at all?

The short answer is no.
[Longer answer] I can't speak for all schools of Jyotish as there are many lakhs (hundreds of thousands) of methodologies as there are practitioners. I personally am not familiar with a formal system of determining the Lord of a Geniture or chart in Parashari. If there is one I suspect it is a modern contagion from Western astrological concepts that are slowly hybridizing modern Jyotish. Even within Parahari system of Jyotish there are a number of sub-systems or schools of thought. There have been numerous commentators, both classical and modern. Understanding of the system from the classical texts is difficult and much caution needs to be used when using contemporary authors.

Now, Tajika (read sidereal Arabic/Persian astrology) is another matter. There are methods to determine a Chart Lord and Lord of the year for solar returns. The one for solar returns is quite complicated if you follow all of the steps. Jaimini system I am not familiar with enough to comment if they use this concept.

In Jyotish great emphasis is placed upon the ascendant lord and its condition and any planets in the first house. All of the planets and houses are carefully analysed for strength/weakness/affliction. Of course, there are many other considerations that can't be put into a bulleted list. Often one planet will dominate a chart due to strength, even extreme weakness will do this too. As you say its really comes down to common sense for the astrologer to determine this.

Stefan: Can you give any insight into Tanit's question, 'in Joytish do you use this system of lord of geniture at all?'

I guess if we follow Joytish then that might favor Saturn since it is stationary direct? I find this quite odd because I have a stationary direct Saturn (moving at 26") and it is not what I would classify as strong. It moved direct 3 days before though. I consider my Saturn very afflictive but in sidereal it is in detriment (and also with the NN). It is also in the 3rd and I don't remember that being a good house for it in Joytish. I actually hate Saturn in my chart for the most part. I should order a reading sometime. If you guys have any recommendations, let me know.

In tropical, I would now lean more towards the Moon as capable of being lord of geniture here since Saturn is also stationary

Personally I keep the stationing within 1-2 days and of course should never be taken in isolation. Without seeing your chart it does sound like it is weakened and possibly afflicted by NN (Rahu). Even a strong planet within 2 degrees of the Nodal axis becomes afflicted unless tightly aspected by a strong benefic.

tsukii wrote:Also, please let me know if any planet in the chart stands out or catches your eye.

I thought since I commented on the Jyotish perspectives in this thread I might as well give my two cents towards what I consider the strongest sidereal planet.
There are several strong planets and nice features in this chart but tsukki's calculation of Venus is correct as the strongest planet in my opinion and beats out Saturn mostly due to the conjunction with ascendant lord Mercury.
Venus is well placed and strong in its Mulatrikona sign and ruler of a trinal house. Mercury is exactly conjunct Venus. Now Venus and Mercury are in planetary war or Graha Yuddha. Venus wins but in the sense that Venus envelopes Mercury's significations. Neither planet is harmed as both are benefic in this chart.
Saturn is a close second because it is extremely well placed and strong in its Mulatrikona sign in the auspicious ninth house. Saturn is also in its own sign in navamsa with Mercury and Venus. Saturn is in the midheaven.
Mention should be made of the Moon in the 10th house, an angular house. The Moon here is not bad, just okay as it is in an enemies sign natally and in D9 with Ketu. Its energies are mixed I would say.
There is a bit of a grey cloud with Venus/Mercury and Saturn as they are in the 8th and 12th house from the Moon respectively.
If Tsukii contributes I will share what I think are the weakest planets etc...

hi aj,

thanks for the additional commentary here.. it is interesting what you say here about graha yudda - venus-mercury conjunction and etc..

i notice you commenting on the placement of venus-mercury-saturn with regard to the moons houses... do you also consider placements with regard to sun houses, or is it really primarily about the ascendant and moon houses where the most weight is given?

also - how much of a factor is planetary phase? you say planets that are stationary are very powerful.. saturn is approx 5 days, venus 10 days and mercury 14 days from their change in direction... you use at 1-2 day window... my own experience leads me to believe a larger window is valid - 7 days anyway - especially for the outer planets.. but regardless of that, how much of a factor do you give this here?

regarding the orbs you use - i know, i know - orbs are a contentious issue - you are working with a 2 degree orb for any planet being handicapped with the nodes... i am guessing this is what you have arrived at by experience, but just checking!

thanks for your comments..

AJ,

No I am not familiar with the concept "Lord of geniture" as I am not so apt with traditional western astrology.

when it comes to judging strength I use the jyotish dignities, but being aware of other stuff like western chart patterns like singletons for example. ( for example the singleton status of Jupiter in Bransons chart is potent, Angularity of planets near angles seems important for strength, stationary planets also.

(I agree with your assesment of strengths in the OP chart. Venus and Saturn seems to be the two most potent planets ( have not looked into divisional charts like navamsha though, so with some reservation.

Venus and mercury forming a Raja Yoga for rise in position, so their periods should be watched for that, although the planetary war between these two planets might complicate it a bit.

Rahu is important player in chart as well due to so many planets placed in Rahu ruled nakshatra's/lunar mansions I think.)

AJ wrote: Saturn is a close second because it is extremely well placed and strong in its Mulatrikona sign in the auspicious ninth house. Saturn is also in its own sign in navamsa with Mercury and Venus. Saturn is in the midheaven.

aj - another comment that i wanted to take up is connected to your use of the navamsha... if a planet is in the same sign in both the natal and navamsha chart, it is considered a positive as exampled in tsukii;s chart/s... i haven't read anyone talking about if the planet is in a sign that is not positive - like saturn in leo in both charts... do you have any thoughts on this? i haven't come across it in my reading, although i will be getting a few more books on the navamsha in the next little while...

thanks!
james

james_m wrote:i notice you commenting on the placement of venus-mercury-saturn with regard to the moons houses... do you also consider placements with regard to sun houses, or is it really primarily about the ascendant and moon houses where the most weight is given?

I always use the Udaya, or regular ascendant chart and secondarily the Chandra or Moon chart. Once in awhile, I will use the Surya, or sun ascendant chart. You might be interested to know that there is a method called Sudarshana Chakra which combines all three charts together. It facilitates reading all three ascendants together and also has its own dasha. I have played with the technique but there are some Indian astrologers that use it exclusively. The dasha system is key though as it tells which houses are active at any one time.
Here is an approximate of tsukii's chart in Sudarshana format

james_m wrote:also - how much of a factor is planetary phase? you say planets that are stationary are very powerful.. saturn is approx 5 days, venus 10 days and mercury 14 days from their change in direction... you use at 1-2 day window... my own experience leads me to believe a larger window is valid - 7 days anyway - especially for the outer planets.. but regardless of that, how much of a factor do you give this here?

Any period surrounding the exact time of station for a planet is purely arbitrary. I deem an inner planet to be stationary if within about one day of its exact station for a total stationary window of 3 days, and usually two days for the outer naked eye planets for a total stationary period of about five days. This is the “power window??? for stationing. I prefer a pretty tight window for stationing for two reasons. This is where the effect observable. Secondly, the actual change of station is the only event of any real significance in the retrogradation cycle.
If you were to observe Saturn against the night sky it would, of course, look to be in the same spot relative to the fixed stars for several weeks before and after the station and I guess that is an argument to extend the window but I prefer to use the speed of the planet as my yardstick. Again this is purely arbitrary on my part but works well in practice. The further from the actual time of station I find the power effect of station pretty much null in the charts I have studied.

Within a week or two of station but outside of the stationing window I consider the planet as in a type of accidental dignity to put it in western terms.

james_m wrote:regarding the orbs you use - i know, i know - orbs are a contentious issue - you are working with a 2 degree orb for any planet being handicapped with the nodes... i am guessing this is what you have arrived at by experience, but just checking!

Yes orbs, one of the more zesty of the astrological arguments... Yes, orbs are arbitrary too. This is as far as I know not found in any ancient text. That doesn't mean it isn't valid. There are many contradictions and limitations in the classical texts. This is why gurus in Jyotish are so important and a willingness of the student to fire everything in the crucible of their own experience.

I use a two degree orb for this because I find that even a strong planet becomes afflicted when caught up in the Nodal axis unless it is offset by a tight benefic aspect. Weak planets 5 degrees with the influence getting less as the orb opens to the five degree limit. Aspects and orbs is a pretty complicated subject with many variables in Indian astrology as you know and this is just one. I don't want to give the wrong impression.

james_m wrote:

AJ wrote: Saturn is a close second because it is extremely well placed and strong in its Mulatrikona sign in the auspicious ninth house. Saturn is also in its own sign in navamsa with Mercury and Venus. Saturn is in the midheaven.

aj - another comment that i wanted to take up is connected to your use of the navamsha... if a planet is in the same sign in both the natal and navamsha chart, it is considered a positive as exampled in tsukii;s chart/s... i haven't read anyone talking about if the planet is in a sign that is not positive - like saturn in leo in both charts... do you have any thoughts on this? i haven't come across it in my reading, although i will be getting a few more books on the navamsha in the next little while...

thanks!
james

The same logic applies to negative positions when we are looking at the "themes" of the planets natally and in the various charts.

Stefan: Thanks for your insights, couldn't agree more.
Tsukii's chart is just an approximate for example and discussion. Certainly, it is not being used for "live" delineation. It would be nice to have the full birth data in case tsukii rejoins the conversation.
Be Well.

thanks aj!

i have never heard of this Sudarshana Chakra - use of the 3 charts... is that being generated by the joyti star software? i really need to understand the basis for the dasas more fully as they are very central to everything in indian astrology...

here is an interesting page on Sudarshana Chakra, but it is something different, though i am sure related... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudarshana_Chakra

thanks for articulating how much is arbitrary in all of this... one is really left to their own experience in some much, which is probably a good thing... you mentioned a teacher.. life is the best teacher, but it is nice to have others encouraging or offering insights along the way too - such as you are doing here at skyscript! cheers james

link on sudarshana chakra from a particular persons understanding -
https://medium.com/thoughts-on-jyotish/ ... 8ff8ef23e2

james_m wrote:i have never heard of this Sudarshana Chakra - use of the 3 charts... is that being generated by the joyti star software? i really need to understand the basis for the dasas more fully as they are very central to everything in indian astrology...

BTW.. transits are used too with this technique.
SC Dasha is very simple to calculate and in the days of hand calculating it was much easier than vimshottari and was often used with the Udaya chart alone if you needed quick calcs. It's a 12-year cycle dasha. Each dasha has 12 main periods and each subperiod will have 2.5 days. See how simple?
Solar years only! 1st year of dasha represents the 1st house and 12th year is dasha of 12th house and then repeats... so on and so on.

here is an interesting page on Sudarshana Chakra, but it is something different, though i am sure related... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudarshana_Chakra

Yes, this is the weapon Vishnu used to decapitate Rahu after tasting the Amrita, the nectar of immortality.

thanks aj,

i was just reading up on it and noticed your comments and the ones on this pdf seem to correlate closely with the concept of profections in trad astrology... i will have to look at it more closely.. thanks for the additional comments on this.. i was about to start a separate thread on this topic, but thought i would respond to you here first...

https://www.sranjanmishra.com/Document/ ... hColor.pdf

james_m wrote:thanks aj,

i was just reading up on it and noticed your comments and the ones on this pdf seem to correlate closely with the concept of profections in trad astrology... i will have to look at it more closely.. thanks for the additional comments on this.. i was about to start a separate thread on this topic, but thought i would respond to you here first...

https://www.sranjanmishra.com/Document/ ... hColor.pdf

There are so many amazing techniques both western and eastern. Since we are on the subject I blew the dust off my Sudarshan chakra chart and noticed that it reflects some recent events almost as well as my other techniques, reflecting the P3 chart quite well in fact. Not quite as precise in timing but that is due to the broader SC dasha window. So yeah. Start a new topic.