Skyscript Astrology Forum

Ouranos wrote:

As discussed with you some time ago Therese, with my Sun conjunct the South Node, I had during my first Nodal return an 'out-of-the-body' experience and you rightfully pointed out that it was similar to what some yogis [experience] in India.

Prash Trivedi, author of The Key of LIfe: Astrology of the Lunar Nodes mentions that he also has a very close conjunction of Ketu and the Sun. I can't find the quote in his book now, but I remember reading that during the writing of the book he had some striking and unusual experiences. Ketu seems to be definitely related to the psychic and astral realms. Trivedi says that the combination of Sun and Ketu is one of the most spiritual combinations one can have. We might ask him to define his understanding of spiritual, but the combination seems to be distinctly otherworldly.

Trivedi also suggests Ketu has a link with the past when he says, "It shows that the native has been working on developing the solar part of their nature in their previous life/lives." (p. 170) Trivedi may be dipping into western sources on the nodes here. If so, he may be finding the Ketu link to the past valid. He doesn't list western books in his bibliography, but he probably has seen some of those books. Manik Chand Jain's books were published in India in 1978 and 1980. Trivedi's book was published in 2002.

As a side note Jain used only the traditional Indian equal house system (Raman/Vehlow) with equal ascendant degree cusps as the centers of houses. (page ix in Karmic Control Planets)

One thing that can be misleading when looking at the Nodes is the eternal duality of the world we live in. Day and night, left and right, up and down.
To me, we should welcome both Nodes as a 'continuous process' underlying Unity in Time. Not something cut off from the tidal ebb and flow or split into past and future. It is the same energy in the spiritual world. Just like breathing.
From the experience I had, in the morning, just before waking up, I could recall what I had done during the night and very clear like if you would ask me to describe the house in front of me. At night, before going to sleep, something in myself took a picture, like a snapshot of my day.
And what I found amazing is that I was 'conscious' all the time. Day and night did not exist anymore. My life was a continuous thread. With just a pause in between as if my body was reversing the poles... breathing in, breathing out. And so does the Moon when it goes North or South at the Nodes. A pulse of the Universe.
Don't forget to invoke the Feminine energy. Whatever it is in your life. Yin, Shakti, Kali, Gaia, Mary, Mother. This is the best companion in your journey.

Mark wrote:

Re: "The idea the nodes are linked to past/future originally stems from Dane Rudhyar in his 1936 book 'The Astrology of Personality''. Rudhyar was also the first to hint at a karmic/reincarnation angle to the nodes in that same book."

Atlantean wrote:

So, you're saying that there are no older, vedic sources that connect the Nodes (Rahu/Ketu) with reincarnation and karma???

In a nutshell yes. At least none that have been identified yet. Chris Brennan and Ronnie Dreyer (author of Vedic Astrology (1997) did an excellent astrology podcast on this last year. The subject came up for extensive discussion in the podcast. Chris Brennan even went as far as to suggest that the link between rahu/ketu and reincarnation entered Indian astrology via the UK based Jytoshi Komilla Sutton. However, that theory seems refuted by the books Therese Hamilton has mentioned later in this thread. Still, so far there seems to be no evidence of the idea in Jyotish publications prior to the appearance of Martin Shulman's book ''The Moon's Nodes and Reincarnation'' (1975).

Another myth the programme helped dispel is that the Indians have used the lunar nodes in horoscopic astrology for thousands of years. Many Jyotishi's perptuate this myth and usually link the astrological use of the nodes to the ancient ''churning of the ocean' myth in the Mahabharata and Puranas where the eclipse demon is referred to. However, these ancient vedic texts long proceeded a mathematical understanding of the nodes. Indian traditional texts like the Brihat Jataka, and Brihat Samhita by Varahamihira (6th century AD) make no mention of the lunar nodes. Ketu is referred to but at this point it was used to refer to comets not the south node. According to Ronnie Dreyer , the 9th century text The S??r??valī of Kaly??ṇavarman ( c800 AD) also makes no mention of the nodes. So the reality iseems to be that the Indian astrological use of the lunar nodes came long after the first recorded use of lunar nodes in hellenistic astrology (1st century AD)

Here is the link to the podcast I mentioned:

https://theastrologypodcast.com/2021/02 ... astrology/

Mark

Therese Hamilton wrote:

The earliest book I’ve seen on the nodes is George White’s The Moon’s Nodes, American Federation of Astrologers, 1927. (74 pages). He builds a case for the north node enhancing progress and reputation in life, and the south node bringing discredit and disgrace. He mentions the recent birth of the royal princess (Elizabeth) and the presence of the south node on her ascendant. Today he would be surprised to see her 70 year reign as queen of England.

I have sourced references going back to hellenistic astrology (and some speculation by Bernadette Brady on the Babylonian attitude to the nodes). But if we are discussing the 20th century yes that book is the first I have come across too. I thought with his belief in karma and reincarnation Alan Leo might be an early source linking the nodes to reincarnation. However, Leo seems to have been disinterested in the nodes and didn't even display them in charts.

Your quite right about George White's reference to Queen Elizabeth. He takes a rather dim view on the SN/Ketu in the ASC. He seems to link it a lot to physiological features like extreme shortness or birth defects. Queen Elizabeth's certainly is rather short but her life seems to validate a more positive Jyotish natal interpretation since she has devoted her life to exemplary public service. She also seems to be quite a spiritual woman with a strong Christian faith. She seems to take her role exceptionally seriously and I dont think its an exagerration to say she regards her position as a covenant with God following her taking the oath in her coronation ceremony in 1953. Even die hard republicans have respect for her as a public sevant. Interesting from a tropical perspective Saturn rules her Capricorn ASC on the MC in the fixed sign Scorpio. She has certainly been long enduring as the longest serving monarch in British history. If she is still on the throne in 2024 she will displace the French King Louis XIV as the longest serving monarch in history. When she became Queen, Winston Churchill was still Prime Minister and Eisenhower was US President!

Therese Hamilton wrote:

The next book is Dane Rudhyar’s The Astrology of Personality, Lucas Publishing, 1936. He equates the Moon’s north node with the future and destiny (Divine will), work to be done and the south node with the past and human will, the path of least resistance. So we can credit Rudhyar for the concepts of past and future in relation to the Moon’s nodes.

The suggestion Dane Rudyar was also hinting at reincarnation has been suggested by Kathy Allan her book When Worlds Collide: Another Look at the Lunar Nodes (2012) and by Chris Brennan in a couple of his podcasts. Following your question on where to locate this in Rudhyar's book I actually contacted Chris Brennan. He sent me the quotes from the book he thinks are suggestive of reincarnation. Although, he concedes this conclusion is tentative. I will post this up when I have more time on Sunday.


Therese Hamilton wrote:

The next book is Martin Shulman’s The Moon’s Nodes and Reincarnation (1975). I don’t have this book or can’t locate it. But as others have pointed out, this is the source text for linking the Moon's nodes to reincarnation.

Yes I have the book. He lists some interesting natal examples.


Therese Hamilton wrote:

Mohan Koparkar’s Lunar Nodes (Mohan Enterprises, 1977) apparently picked up the reincarnation concept from Shulman. Although born in India, Koparkar was educated in the United States. The cover of his book blatantly states: North Node: Karmic distribution, energy into this life; South Node; Inlet of karma from past life, reincarnation.

The karmic reincarnation concept saw full flower in two of Manik Chand Jain’s books, Rahu and Ketu in Predictive Astrology (Astrological Publications, 1978) and Karmic Control Planets (Astrological Publications, 1980). Jain was born and raised in India, but traveled to America and other countries lecturing and teaching. I knew him personally in the 1980s and attended his workshops. He freely copied sentences and paragraphs from other writers without giving credit, and had help from western students writing and editing his books. That is why the language in his books is usually very good for an Indian author.

Thank you Therese! This is invaluable information. I was sceptical the source of these ideas originated with a source as late as Komilla Sutton as Chris Brennan claimed. This helps fill in some important pieces of the jigsaw. Much appreciated!

Therese Hamilton wrote:

The next book I have in my library is Prash Trivedi’s The Key of Life, Astrology of the Lunar Nodes. (India: Sagar Publicatons, 2002) An Indian by birth and through his growing up years in India, Trivedi would have been aware of any oral tradition linking the nodes to karma and reincarnation. He does not mention this link in his book, but instead covers notes from the classics on the nature of the Moon’s nodes.

For example in India both nodes have been linked to unpleasant incidents, negative psychic phenomenon, strange and incurable diseases and deep rooted psychological disorders, which Trivedi says he has found true in his experience (page 19). Trivedi says that in his opinion Rahu/north node combines the traits of Uranus and Neptune while Ketu/south node seems to act like Pluto. He mentions the positive spiritual side of Ketu as Ketu has been linked to the soul’s liberation from earth life.

So any nodal book later than Trivedi’s exhaustive and excellent text is likely drawing on these earlier books or plowing new ground. Trivedi’s book is the only text that is wholly from India, though in a survey he does mention a few concepts from western texts as a comparison to India’s traditional teachings. His bibliography contains only Indian texts.

Thanks. I have the book but haven't studied it fully yet. Its always difficult to make direct comparisons from totally different astrological traditions. Still, I have seen other Jyotishi's compare Rahu to Pluto (sometimes Uranus too) and Neptune to Ketu. For example, Ronnie Dreyer in her book on Vedic astrology (1997). That has a ring of plausibility to me with Rahu linked to obsessive ideas, and power and pleasure seeking while Ketu is associated with material loss, spirituality, renunciation, self sacrifice, confusion, mental illness etc. However, Rahu is traditionally linked to sudden, unexpected events (fitting its Mars association). That could also be compared to Uranus.

Of course both nodes are regarded as destabilizing and disruptive in both the traditional Western and Indian traditions. Discussing her personal experience in horary astrology Deborah Houlding once stated in a forum post here on Skyscript: ''

I have more difficulty relating to the North Node as a benefic, because (from a horary perspective) I’ve often noticed that charts relating to difficult or traumatic situations get asked when the nodal axis is strongly highlighted.''

I have seen a lot of death charts linked to the nodes either opposing their natal position (e.g. JFK) or squaring it (e.g. Bruce Lee). I also have a large number of charts in my mundane files linking nodes to terrorist incidents , disasters and accidents. Especially, involving Mars and Saturn.

Mark

Mark wrote:

Thank you Therese! This is invaluable information. I was sceptical the source of these ideas originated with a source as late as Komilla Sutton as Chris Brennan claimed. This helps fill in some important pieces of the jigsaw. Much appreciated!

In my declining years I'm always happy if I can contribute helpful information! Koparkar's book may not have made its way to India, but Jain's books were actually published there. Koparkar may be the author who introduced the importance of dispositors of the nodes, calling them karmic control planets. Jain mentions Koparkar in his books and copies material from his lunar node book. So I think we have a clear path of the nodal connection of past/future, karma and reincarnation to India:

Rudhyar--->Shulman--->Koparkar--->Jain (1978, 1980)

I haven't seen Komilla Sutton's book on the nodes, but 'Jyotishi', an Amazon reviewer calls the book "whimsical mindless unscholarly nonsense" and recommends Prash Tivdedi's book. Komilla Sutton is Indian, but based in the UK and has freely incorporated western ideas into her books. Thus she has contributed to the current hybrid 'Vedic' astrology.

Ouranos wrote:Arthyr W. Chadbourne in his book 'Ancient Whispers from Chaldea' introduces the concept of the Nodes in Babylonian Astrology.
The Egyptians refered to the Node as 'The Hidden One' in Heaven, the most powerful heavenly force because during an eclipse of the Sun the Moon conjoined the Sun at the Nodal point and appeared to shut off its light. They were menacing occurences so much that for 100 days after a solar eclipse, a substitute king silently ruled the country in place of the real king. So long for the Queen who never ruled UK and always acted as a substitute.
Nearly forty percent of the tablets Enuma Anu Enlil are devoted to the discussion of eclipses and their omina.

This whole concept of the Nodes is there to remind us that no human being is an island.
Suffice to say that Alfred Witte keywords for the Nodes are 'Union. Connections. Relationships. The common link. Network. Limit, boundary or border relations.' Crossing the line, it can be easy to say that 'every relationship is karmic.'

In his book 'Le Grand Livre de la Synergologie', Philippe Turchet says:

'Mathias Brand, professor at the University of Duisburg-Essen in Germany, showed how the body tells the brain what to choose and how the delay between a bodily message and a conscious and articulated message can in some cases exceed 60 seconds. By observing bodies, recent scientific experiments show us that our bodies often make decisions before we are aware of them. It's like Spielberg's science fiction film 'Minority Report' where murderers are arrested and sentenced for a crime they have not yet committed.
The Nodes can represent that 'indefinable element' in us that pushes us in different circumstances towards people who will determine the course of our lives.'

Chadbourne goes on to say that 'when a client is in a state of indecision, you may observe that the minor or tertiary lunar progressed Node is changing directions. If this is the case, look to the planet in the direction that the Node is traveling for a clue to your client's solution.'
A nodal point in physics relates to the zero point in a system. In mathematics, it is the point at which a continuously curved line crosses itself. The Node is defined as 'the intersection or terminating point of two or more lines or curves". Egyptians viewed existence in this fashion. They saw all existence as different combinations of intersecting energy patterns that permeated the universe.'

In this sense, the Nodes may represent 'pre-existing archetypes' as defined by Rupert Sheldrake's treatise on pre-existing archetypes which are genetically coded in our body.
Does Nature Have a Hidden Memory?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j3a9BB ... Williamson

I would say that all elements of the chart could be seen as 'pre-existing archetypes'. And they all tie in with our genetic make-up, otherwise there could be no relationship with face and body types, organs (astro-medicine), et cetera.

As discussed with you some time ago Therese, with my Sun conjunct the South Node, I had during my first Nodal return an 'out-of-the-body' experience and you rightfully pointed out that it was similar to what some yogis experience in India.
The Nodes can represent our 'astral body' and show us how we are connected to the Universe.

I remember once having read an interview with a native Tibetan astrologer in which he was asked if, according to his tradition, the lunar nodes played a special role in determining a chart holder's karmic background, but (much to the interviewer's surprise) he denied that they were seen as particularly important in this regard.

Michael Sternbach
I would say that all elements of the chart could be seen as 'pre-existing archetypes'. And they all tie in with our genetic make-up, otherwise there could be no relationship with face and body types, organs (astro-medicine), et cetera.

Agree with you Michael! For what we know of karma, this would seem to represent someone's day to day actions like a list of + and -

My inspiration in my early years, Aurobindo said

"Equality, renunciation of all desire for the fruit of our works, action done as a sacrifice to the supreme Lord of our nature and of all nature, — these are the three first Godward approaches in the Gita’s way of Karmayoga."
Sri Aurobindo, The Synthesis of Yoga – I: Self-Surrender in Works – The Way of the Gita

No matter what you do, do it in consciousness, not desiring the fruits of your actions, cultivating equanimity and consecration to the Divine.
This should lead to dharma, a lifelong task which refers to one's duty in our life.

To me it sounds like Saturn (Dharma) vs Moon (Karma). And I have not been able to clearly see what is happening when a planet is crossing the North or the South Node. But my gut feeling is that something is happening in consciousness. And it signifies 'change' by the nature of the Moon.
Just like last weekend when the Eclipse (when the Sun crossed the NN accompanied by Algol while the Moon crossed the SN over Copula).
What do we have in the news right now? The war in Ukraine of course but also the abortion (Roe vs Wade)
Roe etymology: "mass of fish eggs"
Wade etymology: "walk into or through water"

I am not trying to entertain a weekly Sun sign column here but I am reflecting on what the sky is trying to tell us.

On a side note, I think the history of the Nodes meaning can be approached with the symbolism of the Dragon.
"The astrologers of the medieval Arabo-Persian world certainly know the Hindu origins of the Nodes, and mention the two signs sheltering the Dragon: Gemini and Sagittarius, but never give any indication of its appearance. In fact, even if the Dragon of the lunar eclipses remained a fictitious planet, this one was represented by a symbol or in a roundabout way, sometimes even by one or two dragons, and made evolve in a decisive way the iconography of the two signs of the zodiac who host him in their home."
Anna Caiozzo
https://journals.openedition.org/mediev ... 21?lang=en