Skyscript Astrology Forum

Mark wrote:I think your opening sentence 'In any case, it is a fact easily confirmed (if you read devanagari)'' clearly decimates the field down of qualified researchers considerably!

That's true, of course, but if you want to examine actual preserved horoscopes, there's no way around learning the script(s). Although, come to think of it, learning the numerals (which are the source of ours, and thus fairly similar) might be enough, as cusps are typically listed in tabular format.

Its intriguing as everything you have stated is consistent with the Bhava Chalit system. It doesn't provide any evidence quadrants are being discussed here at all. This could very well be an ASC derived house /bhava system.

It's a possible, but an implausible-possible. The only texts that use that terminology and define it, to my knowledge, are the ones that teach quadrant houses, so that the terms and the system are intimately connected. My (unprovable) gut feeling is that, had Mantreśvara meant to recommend equal houses, he would have said something like 'having the same degree as the ascendant'. But as no Sanskrit text I have ever seen describes a system of equal cusps, he probably had no notion of anyone interpreting his words in that way some 700-900 years later.

It will be interesting but as you know mathematical astronomical texts are not a definitive guide to what astrologers were doing.

Well, that rather depends on whether the authors of both genres were the same people (Śrīpati being one such example) or different ones. Very few texts on horoscopy mention how to calculate houses (and the few that do, to my knowledge, all describe quadrant cusps.)

Hence astronomical knowledge of the MC/Meridian for culminating planets doesn't provide evidence quadrant houses are being used in non-Tajika astrological texts does it?

T??jika or non-T??jika isn't really the issue, as quadrant houses were definitely around in India prior to the T??jikas. But if an author describes how to find the ecliptical longitude of the MC (as opposed to the time of midday, etc.), you have to ask what he wanted it for. I can't think of any other reason than calculating quadrant houses.

This survey I completed a few years ago might be of interest. I've shared this privately with a few astrologers.

Sources for Indian Equal House (Bhava Chart)
Also termed Raman-Vehlow House System

Equal cusps from the Ascendant degree are placed at the center of each 30 degree house. 15 degrees from these centers are Bhava Sandhis, the junction point between two houses.

Compiled on 18 March 2019 by Therese Hamilton

Sources are ordered by earliest publication date except for Vehlow at the top of the list.

1940 (Approximate) Johannes Vehlow, German Astrologer (21 September 1890 - 6 March 1958) Vehlow favored this house system previously known as “Indian Equal House.??? It isn’t known if he had seen a reference to this system or discovered it himself. This house system is now often referred to as the “Raman-Vehlow??? house system as it is the house system favored by Indian’s foremost astrologer, B.V. Raman, and Vehlow gives it a European flavor for Western astrologers.

13th (16th?) Century. Mantreswar’s Phaladeepika. Translated by G. S. Kapoor. New Delhi: Ranjan Publications, 1991.

“Amongst Mercury and Jupiter, whoever is in the Bhava madhya of the 1st bhava (Lagna-East) gets 1 Rupa of strength. Their strength is nil if located in the 7th Bhava madhya (West).??? (p. 39) “Even if a planet be posited in his sign of exaltation or a friendly sign or be enjoying the six kinds of strength (shadbala), he proves in affliction if he is situated in Bhava-sandhi (junction of two houses).??? (p.173)
(The degree measurement of houses is not defined in Phaladeeika. Translations by Sareen and Ojha have similar statements.)

1972 (Ninth Revised Edition) B.V.Raman. A Manual of Hindu Astrology. Bangalore: Raman Publications.
“In our own humble experience extending for nearly 35 years the equal-house system appears to be yielding more satisfactory results.??? (p. 96)

1972-1982 Pandit Gopesh Kumar Ojha. Predictive Astrology of the Hindus. Bombay: D.B. Taraporevala Sons & Co. Pvt.Ltd.

“For the last one thousand years or more, due to contacts with Western and Middle Eastern systems of astrology, the method known as Porphyry’s system has been in vogue in India and has become enshrined in Indian texts...Hindu astrologers have now been claiming this as the Hindu method of house division. But this is not so. This is an imported and not an indigenous one. The original Hindu method is what is known as the equal house division. Parshar, Jaimini, Mantreshwar, all followed this method.

“According to this method if the cusp of the 1st house is 22 degrees, [illustration] the other houses will be as follows: For each house go on adding one full sign, the degrees remaining the same. A house extends to 15° on either side. This is the junction point where the first house ends and the second house commences.??? (pp. 91-94)

1979 Gayatri Devi Raman. Practical Horary Astrology. Bangalore: Raman Publications.

“The Bhava chart is a very important chart in answering questions. The Bhava chart we use is based on the Equal House Division system which takes 15° on either side of the Ascendant as constituting first bhava.??? (p. 118)

1991-2002 V.K. Choudhry. Systems Approach for Interpreting Horoscopes. New Delhi: Sagar Publicaitons.

Most Effective Point (MEP): “The rising degree in the ascendant is known as the most effective point of all the houses...any planet conjunct within 5 degrees on either side...would be influencing the significations of that house in question in a pronounced manner...??? (p. 14)

“In Systems Approach [the] degree rising in the ascendant is taken as the degree indicting mid-point of each house.??? (p. 41)

2004 S.K. Mehta. New Dimensions in Hindu Astrology. New Delhi: Prakash Books.

“We know that each house in the horoscope is of 30 degrees and each sign is also of 30 degrees and ascendant falls in the 1st house. Ascendant is the center of the 1st house. In this case our ascendant is at 7° 32' 43" of 5th sign. So we will take it as the center of 1st house. As a house is also of 30 degrees and the ascendant falls at 7° 32' 43" of 5th sign, 1st house will start 15 degrees earlier and end at 15 degrees after that point.??? (pp. 81-82)

2005-2016 In Panchadhyayee: A Compendium of Predictive Astrology (Sri Pranav Publications) Dr. Suresh Chandra Mishra writes:

“Adding fifteen degrees to a house [ascendant] will indicate the Sandhis... The twelve houses of a horoscope are each equal in their extension, i.e. 30 degrees, and this is the only rational way (of determining the houses for predictive purposes). [Sanskrit passage follows] The degrees of houses thus obtained indicate mid-points of the houses. A house commences fifteen degrees earlier than that and extends up to fifteen degrees beyond. This method is applicable to all sorts of lagnas. The Tenth house calculated trigonometrically does not hold well in predictive astrology.??? (p. 17)

2007 in his translation of Tajik Neelkanthi (Ranjan Publications) D. P. Saxena comments on the older Indian equal house system. In discussing the complexities of calculating Sripati house centers and sandhis, he writes:

“Some houses are very long and some very short in higher latitudes. Sometimes it so happens that a single sign may represent two houses while the other may not be able to represent a single house. This discrepancy does not come across in the old Hindu equal house system where the degrees at the cusp of the ascendant are the degrees at the cusp [bhava madha] of each house. (p. 31)

2012 True Astrology Software contains the choice for the “Vehlow??? house system. (India: Sejal Infotech)

2013 Rohini Ranjan posted on the Yahoo Sidereal Astrology Forum: “I learned Jyotish in India some 40+ years ago through books, articles and discussion with practicing Jyotishis. I do not recall any time when “Vehlow??? was not used in India! Only, we called it “Equal House Division.???

2015 Gayatri Devi Vasudev, personal email communication to Shyamasundara Dasa on 8 October 2015 at 2:46:56 PM GMT:

“Father [B.V. Raman] went by the Equal House Division for the Bhava chart where we take 15 degrees on either side of the Ascendant point to determine the first house and similarly, with the other houses or Bhavas. However, he tried and experimented with different House systems in his earlier years but finally settled for the Equal House System as the best.???

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Notice that none of these titles uses the term “Vedic??? for India’s astrology which shows the dearth of western influence. That is, these sources rely on native Indian astrological doctrine without influence from the modern “Jyotish??? west.

Thanks, Therese. What most strikes me is the fact that these are all twentieth-century sources (despite the usual claims of great antiquity). I'd be very interested indeed to see an actual Sanskrit source for Indian equal houses, or a worked Indian horoscope from before the twentieth century that used them. The ones I have seen are consistently like this one (dated 1770 CE) in the OPenn collection:
https://openn.library.upenn.edu/Data/00 ... ndic3.html

The house cusps are in the bottommost table in shot 3, beneath the two decorative charts, under the heading अथ स???फ???टद???वादशभावाः ससंधयश???चेति ('These are the cusps of the twelve houses along with their junctions'). Even if you can't read the table, you can see that the cusps are not repetitions of the same degree.

Martin wrote:

I'd be very interested indeed to see an actual Sanskrit source for Indian equal houses, or a worked Indian horoscope from before the twentieth century that used them. The ones I have seen are consistently like this one (dated 1770 CE) in the OPenn collection:
https://openn.library.upenn.edu/Data/00 ... ndic3.html

The house cusps are in the bottommost table in shot 3, beneath the two decorative charts, under the heading अथ स???फ???टद???वादशभावाः ससंधयश???चेति ('These are the cusps of the twelve houses along with their junctions'). Even if you can't read the table, you can see that the cusps are not repetitions of the same degree.

Martin, what is the approximate date that the Porphyry system would have made its way to India? Porphyry is the basis of SriPati quadrant houses of course.

James Braha is one of the earliest western authors of books on India's astrology. (Ancient Hindu Astrology for the Modern Western Astrologer, 1986) Braha studied with two Indian astrologers, one of which was R. Santhanam. In his books he mentions that whole sign houses is the 'older' system, and the Indian equal house with cusps at the centers of houses is the newer system and more in use now. There is no mention in Braha's books of SriPati or any quadrant system of houses.

I've recently been reviewing Braha's books, but don't have the precise references by my computer at the moment. I can look them up if anyone is interested.

Through the years I've studied or skimmed most (or all?) of the older Indian texts that have been translated into English. I've never seen any mention of the mechanics of house division except that one reference in Phaldeepika that has been mentioned already.

Well, we know that the (so-called) Porphyry system predates Valens, who cites an earlier author on it (Orion, possibly 1st century BCE/CE), so in principle it could have reached India in the very first wave of transmission. When the transmission actually did happen, we don't know.

Texts on horoscopy (hor??) tend not to include astronomical calculations such as finding the positions of the planets, the ascendant, the midheaven, or the other cusps. That's why I think it might be useful to establish the earliest known text on such calculations (gaṇita) that includes finding the longitude of the midheaven. Unfortunately this isn't my area at all, and I wouldn't know where to start looking (which is why I asked a colleague for assistance).

Occasionally an author will write on both mathematical astronomy and horoscopy, as Śrīpati did in the 11th century. His J??takakarmapaddhati became extremely popular and thus was copied again and again. If there were earlier works outlining some of the same material, they may have fallen into oblivion from no longer being copied. I'm not saying that we know this to be the case, but such things do/did happen.

Braha studied with two Indian astrologers, one of which was R. Santhanam. In his books he mentions that whole sign houses is the 'older' system, and the Indian equal house with cusps at the centers of houses is the newer system and more in use now. There is no mention in Braha's books of SriPati or any quadrant system of houses.

I know; I have his books, and his first one was my introduction to Indian astrology. It was a good introductory text, but there were many things he didn't know and/or didn't say. Santhanam himself used quadrant cusps in some of his own writings. But these are still twentieth-century authors.

Through the years I've studied or skimmed most (or all?) of the older Indian texts that have been translated into English. I've never seen any mention of the mechanics of house division except that one reference in Phaldeepika that has been mentioned already.

I know that V. Subrahmanya Sastri, perhaps the most prolific of the early translators (and incidentally a much better Sanskritist than Santhanam), refers to the topic occasionally. He also translated the J??takakarmapaddhati (under the title Sripatipaddhati). Unfortunately, his traditional style of erudition led him often to quote, in the course of his English commentary, untranslated passages in Sanskrit from other works! Other paṇ???itas (and the odd Sanskrit-literate westerner such as myself) would benefit from the references, of course, but presumably they wouldn't need an English translation in the first place.

Therese Hamilton wrote:.....

James Braha is one of the earliest western authors of books on India's astrology. (Ancient Hindu Astrology for the Modern Western Astrologer, 1986) Braha studied with two Indian astrologers, one of which was R. Santhanam. In his books he mentions that whole sign houses is the 'older' system, and the Indian equal house with cusps at the centers of houses is the newer system and more in use now. ......

Hello all - is there a sanskrit source for "that whole sign houses is the 'older' system"? or from what source comes the Braha opinion?

Best Wishes and thanks for the great discussion
Volker

volkerschendel wrote:

Hello all - is there a sanskrit source for "that whole sign houses is the 'older' system"? or from what source comes the Braha opinion?

This statement which is recorded in more than one of Braha's books apparently comes from his two Indian teachers, R. Santhanam and P.M. Padia. I suspect this is Indian oral tradition. No other sources are given.

Thanks for the feedback. - I tend not to believe in this sort of oral tradition since antiquity.

I was thinking of relatively current oral tradition. I have no idea what oral tradition says that supposedly goes far into the past.

Then it is just like in the western astrology history - we simply know too little

But Thanks and Best Wishes
Volker

Bhava Chalita is prescribed in Surya Siddhanta and Soma Siddhanta. But the problem is that this is contrary to the instructions in Horas itself. According to the North Indian Horas as well as the South Indian Naadis, the natal chart should be viewed exclusively according to the equinomous system. Also from Varahamisira's Brihat Jataka it is quite clear that he used the traditional equal house system and no other.

zastreluga wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:43 am Bhava Chalita is prescribed in Surya Siddhanta and Soma Siddhanta. But the problem is that this is contrary to the instructions in Horas itself. According to the North Indian Horas as well as the South Indian Naadis, the natal chart should be viewed exclusively according to the equinomous system. Also from Varahamisira's Brihat Jataka it is quite clear that he used the traditional equal house system and no other.

If you want to refer to traditional texts (I assume that's what you mean by Horas?), actual references/quotations would be useful, so that others can examine the evidence for themselves.