Thanks for posting that primary direction chart Stefan. In terms of 'background techniques' the ones I find most reliable are primary directions and solar returns. They tend to all come together at the times that the transit reconnections 'pop'.

I recently gave a talk about the topic of natal mortality indicators for Skyscript Patreons, and as follow-up Jason Burns pointed out that Tina's last solar return had an exact (almost to the minute) return of her natal 8th-house ruler, Jupiter. The chart is here: https://imgur.com/a/xVj2opQ

Tina had been unwell for some time. Wikipedia reports that she had previously signed up for an assisted suicide program, until her husband offered to donate one of his kidneys ("Turner accepted his donation and had kidney transplant surgery on April 7, 2017"). On that date, Venus was at 28 Pisces - again, exactly conjunct Jupiter - death appeased by the sacrifice made by her husband's gift of a kidney.

As Neptune transited Jupiter at the time of her death, I am sure she would have been heavily sedated for a while, and suppose it came as a relief and release.

Primary Directions with Solar (and Lunar Returns) are all you need for accurate predictions.

Morin de Villefranche died with the SR ASC on the cusp of the 8th ruled by Jupiter
"And if in the solar revolution the Ascendant is the place of the radical Saturn, or of Mars in the 8th, or of the ruler of the 8th, the native will have to be on guard against death in that month in which the Ascendant of the lunar revolution is the same, or in that quarter in which it is the same, and with the rest in agreement."
Rule 7, Ch 18 of Book XXIII on his Astrologica Gallica (tr James H. Holden)

I had a friend whose sister died with Jupiter over the Moon. She was not a public figure but so many people came to attend her funeral that some were left standing outside the church.

Somehow, I also like Uranian astrology for all the formulas they come up with like Mars/Saturn for death. In 2021, Michael Feist published 'Lexicon for Planetary Pictures' which is a support for tracking down the unkonwn position of a planetary picture, that reveals information about a certain question with 3,200 individual index words.
As an example, there is an entry that says
Travel = Mercury/Saturn (parting to travel)
Turner has this sum on the cusp of her 7th = her natal ASC
Turner will be farewelled abroad and not in Brownsville, Tennessee, where she was born in 1939.

Ouranos wrote:"And if in the solar revolution the Ascendant is the place of the radical Saturn, or of Mars in the 8th, or of the ruler of the 8th, the native will have to be on guard against death in that month in which the Ascendant of the lunar revolution is the same, or in that quarter in which it is the same, and with the rest in agreement."
Rule 7, Ch 18 of Book XXIII on his Astrologica Gallica (tr James H. Holden)

Just as a marginal note, from the Latin (and from Morin's teachings generally), I believe he meant for these factors to be combined, not separate options: that is, the ascendant should be on a radical malefic (Mars or Saturn) which is either in the 8th or ruling the 8th.

Good point Martin,
The SR ASC conjunct the ruler of the 8th is one factor.
It just happened that Turner had a transit of Neptune over it this year. Not to forget that her natal Jupiter is in the midpoint Mars/Saturn.
Oh! I just received an email from Morin and he says he will include Neptune in the next edition of his Astrological Gallica!

stefan ( and others)

thanks again for forcing me to recreate your example and use of the animated chart with true nodes instead of mean nodes, and to take the concept a step further... i am still not sold on the use of primary directions and think those who suggest pd's great importance while not demonstrating the use, especially before the fact, need to step up to the plate and demonstrate their value...

so is it naibod or ptolemy key?? obviously the time difference is significant, the older a person is...

here is what i get off these numbers..

4 ( minutes ) x83 (years) + 2 minutes (1/2 year) = 334 minutes... moving the natal chart forward 334 minutes gives a chart for tina turner like this... apparently this reflects her primary directions..



this is much the same as sfefan's earlier chart, except it is in sidereal and with true node, instead of mean node.. one can note the true node closely squares the midheaven axis for what that is worth...

but i want to draw others attention to the pd saturn close 45 degree aspect to moon in the 8th... in the original sidereal chart i posted on this thread - cancer rising is ruled by moon.. in the natal chart saturn rules the 8th using whole sign houses.. pd saturn is also in a very close exact trine to venus - venus in this chart rules the 1st and 8th houses.. my problem with this chart might be the ptolemy key of 4 minutes = 1 year, given how the ascendant is over a degree past saturn, but maybe i am being picky...

next we look at the same chart using the naibod key 3.9 minutes per year.. 3.9 minutes x 83 ( years ) + 2 ( for 1/2 year) rounded out gives 326 minutes... the chart below is for 326 minutes forward using tinas birth chart..



in this chart the ascendant degree is applying and much closer to saturn on the descendant.. the true node is a little over 1 degree out of square to the midheaven axis... the saturn-moon 45 and saturn-venus 120 still hold... venus rules the 1/8 houses using whole sign houses..

the next chart is essentially a converse primary direction, as i pushed the time backwards 326 minutes, as opposed to forward... here is where martin might like to tell me i have it backwards..



well, it is fairly obvious what is at play here... moon, as ruler of the natal sidereal birth chart is on the ascendant conjunct in the sidereal sign scorpio... it is very closely squared by mars and less then a degree off the square of sun... mars rules the 7th and 12th houses of this chart.... jupiter ruler of the 8th in this chart is in a 45/135 aspect to the midheaven axis....

i am still not convinced of the merits of primary directions, although it is highly possible some authority is going to tell me i am doing them wrong too, lol.. perhaps i and others need to see their use in action more frequently in order to develop a more favourable viewpoint on their predictive value as a type of stand alone technique.. or perhaps they can't be used in any stand alone way and need to be incorporated with other techniques as deb has stated earlier.. of course the 2022 solar return for tina turner was so striking, it was a strong motivational factor for me to start this thread initially... see my first post for the importance of saturn in the solar return for 2022... for saturn to be highlighted in this method of animating the chart with the rate of speed of the naibod key is interesting here..

James,

The method Stefan showed is good so far as to show the rotation of the Earth ... for the Houses only.
Now, PD is like taking a snapshot of the Ecliptic... with the Planets and rotating the sky at the same time that you rotate the Earth.
Which obviously is not done by this example.
But thanks Stefan for your creativity. The beginning of wisdom starts by thinking outside of the box, which according to the PD of my chart is due by 2099.

True

It was meant as a snapshot visual in the stew.
I am glad for the expanded discussion around the whole thing.

.

Tina Turner was a practicing Buddhist.
A friend learned her about how to chant mantras in 1973.
She could chant for hours and the effect was beneficial on her.
( the natal T-square sun-Mars-Moon was difficult with parental separations and a violent marriage et.c ( mars as focus planet in 7th house).


But the sun in philosophical Sagittarius trining Jupiter domiciled in pisces and trining regenerating Pluto in the transcendantal 12th house was giving relief and growth in spite of difficult times.
In 1973 primary directed Neptune was trine Venus (spiritual chanting and compassionate teachings).
Primary directed Node was on her Neptune as well.

And as Deb pointed out in earlier post of her view of the validity of Primary directons as background setup for transits:
this spiritual background of Primary directions was also present in her transits with transits Neptune conjunction her natal sag sun.
Transiting Pluto (natal 12th) sextile natal sun.

This was actualized in 2005 when she met Dalai Lama in her home in Switzerland.

At that year in primary direction her primary directed Jupiter was opposing her 12th house Pluto (natal trine) activating this regenerating principle and is argument for the 12th house as a spiritual house (which not traditional astrology seems to subsrcibe to), but which the vedic tradition always have teached.

“I have never separated my spiritual practice from my life as a rock singer,??? Turner told the World Tribune, a publication of the Nichiren Buddhist organization Soka Gakkai, in 2018. “When I was going through the hardest times of my life, I was chanting Namu My??h?? Renge Ky??. Chanting helped me and changed my life for the better. I’ve left a good body of work as a rock singer, and I’ve made it very clear that it was because of my spiritual practice.??? (World Tribune)

In 2020, Turner announced a deeply personal book, Happiness Becomes You: A Guide to Changing Your Life for Good, which explored her Buddhist path and her goal of helping others to achieve the peace that she had found. In a 2020 interview ahead of the publication of the book, she said:

After I attempted suicide, a few people suggested I try chanting nam-myoho-renge-kyo and learn about Buddhist principles. At first, I ignored them. But I continued to hear about Buddhism, so finally I decided to look into it. The more I read, the more I found it made perfect sense to me. Soon after I began chanting, I came to see that everything I needed to change my life for the better was already inside of me. I became more confident and hopeful, and the transformations I achieved through my spiritual practice helped me to become joyful and successful.

(Vanity Fair)

a spiritual music project she co-founded in 2007 with fellow singers Regula Curti and Dechen Shak-Dagsay, combining Buddhist chants and Christian choral music with an emphasis on interfaith dialogue and global peace.

Beyond has since collaborated with a number of other musicians and singers, among them Sawani Shende-Sathaye from India, who has a Hindu background, and the celebrated Buddhist nun Ani Choying Drolma from Nepal.

“I have never separated my spiritual practice from my life as a rock singer,??? Turner told the World Tribune, a publication of the Nichiren Buddhist organization Soka Gakkai, in 2018. “When I was going through the hardest times of my life, I was chanting Namu My??h?? Renge Ky??. Chanting helped me and changed my life for the better. I’ve left a good body of work as a rock singer, and I’ve made it very clear that it was because of my spiritual practice.??? (World Tribune)

Note spiritual singing chanting is a domain of Venus Neptune.
Which she have in an aspect in her natal chart.
Which was activated in aspect in Primary direction the year of her starting this practice.

stefan

thanks for your post on tina turner and chanting etc. etc. here... that is quite touching and i learned some more about the women that i didn't know... your post made me go and look again at her chart.. i see venus at the top of a t square with the jupiter-neptune opposition on the bottom... that certainly makes a lot of sense about what you have shared with tina here.. thanks!

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here is a quote from anthony louis ( in the link stefan shared earlier) which you hear repeated constantly by astrologers -
"The first and most important step in analyzing primary directions is to study the natal chart. Directions can only predict what the birth chart promises."

is death promised in a chart? or is it just a part of life? is death an 8th house thing, or is it something else?? in the sidereal chart for tina turner, aquarius is on the 8th house cusp! one could argue most house systems would put jupiter in the 8th house - not whole sign houses, but most other houses.... so where is the jupiter connection to death here off the 8th house jupiter?? i see more of a clear connection to saturn in the primary direction data and in the solar return of her chart for 2022...

what do others think?

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ouranos

thanks for your comment.. i am confused by your comment! perhaps you could word it differently, as i am having a hard time appreciating what you say..

ouranos

thanks for your comment.. i am confused by your comment! perhaps you could word it differently, as i am having a hard time appreciating what you say..

Try to figure out that you are looking out at the sky while the Earth is rotating.
Best example with the Sun. At sunrise the Sun is on the Horizon and then it slowly rises to its culmination at noon. If it was Saturn on the Horizon, the same thing would happen. You would see it overhead at noon.
Has the Sun or Saturn really made about 90 degrees in 6 hours? Obviously not but by Primary Direction (Earth's rotation), yes it did. Another way to say that it is your vision or perception that has changed in 6 hours.
For a life expectancy of 90 years, using 1 degree = 1 year of life, it means that approximately 6 hours after your birth, your whole life is written in the sky.

ouranos

yes - thanks! i do think of this in fact.. and it is the reason that i feel my last chart showing the conjunction of pd sidereal taurus ascendant and moon conjunction in the bottom chart of the 3 charts in my post from much earlier today that i listed -- is a more accurate reflection of what was happening in the sky.. this is what i referred to as the 'converse'' primary direction, which is actually the direction the ascendant is going in - up, not down into the natal moon position - (the approx 3.9 minutes per year formula).

thanks for your participation... do you speak french as your main language?

thanks for your participation... do you speak french as your main language?

Thanks James! Yes I do. And I used to be fluent in Spanish and learned some Latin in my earlier years.