James: Putting humor aside for a bit. I have some questions about your take on Chiron.

The Wounded Healer is bandied about a lot, but what does that mean exactly in delineation?

You mentioned that Chiron had strong Saturnian notes. I wonder if you could clarify that for me.
Maybe better put: What are some attributes or keywords you would apply to Chiron?

If I read you right, you consider Chiron to be a malefic?

Thanks for your insights.
Be Well.

I asked Bing (AI) about Chiron. Here is what he answered....

Chiron is a small planet in our solar system, located between Saturn and Uranus, and it is considered an important point in astrology. In astrology, Chiron represents the wounded healer archetype, and it is associated with the process of healing, transformation, and spiritual growth¹.

Chiron is named after the centaur in Greek mythology who was a healer and teacher who, ironically, could not heal himself after being struck with a poisonous arrow. He suffered a long and painful wound, until he gave up his immortality and died, making way for the rise of the constellation Sagittarius².

Chiron in the natal chart shows where we have our deepest wound and our efforts to heal the wound. It also shows where we have healing powers as the result of our own spiritual wounds. We may over-compensate in these areas of life, or we may face challenges and obstacles that force us to grow and learn. Chiron's sign and house placement show us our wound and how we go about expressing it. Chiron's aspects show us other players in the Chiron story, and Chiron's transits serve as time triggers for our healing journey³.

Some of the themes that Chiron deals with are:

- How we might shoot ourselves in the foot, figuratively speaking, damage ourselves, or nurse a wound.
- How we go our own way in Chiron-touched areas, and how we may be seen as mavericks or outsiders.
- How we may have a strong sense of faith, philosophy, or ethics, or how we may question or challenge them.
- How we may have a unique or unconventional approach to healing, medicine, or education, or how we may seek alternative or holistic methods.
- How we may have a special connection with animals, nature, or the environment, or how we may be involved in their protection or preservation.

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Source: Conversation with Bing, 1/6/2024
(1) Chiron in Astrology | Cafe Astrology .com. https://cafeastrology.com/chiron.html.
(2) Chiron in Astrology | Zodiac Signs and Planets - askAstrology. https://askastrology.com/astrology/astr ... ts/chiron/.
(3) Chiron Meaning in Astrology and a Guide to Your Chiron Sign | POPSUGAR .... https://www.popsugar.com/smart-living/c ... g-48727269.
(4) What’s My Chiron Sign? | Find Your House - Astro Seek. https://astrology-seek.com/astrology-to ... iron-sign/.
(5) Chiron Meaning in Astrology: Asteroid of Wounded Healer. https://mysticalprophet.com/chiron-meaning-astrology/.

thanks aj and ouranos for chiming in here!

first - i am not a fan of AI.. in fact i am anti-AI.. i foresee how this platform will be abused by those in positions of power.. everytime i see AI, it is what i immediately think.. maybe there will be some positives, and in the example ouranos gives - an amalgamation of ideas grabbed off internet astro sites and etc - has some value.. https://www.honest-broker.com/p/ugly-nu ... nd-chatgpt

the concept of the wounded healer is only one of the images that has been latched onto in the astrological community.. much of the symbolism is associated with mythology.. when we give mythology a role to play in astrology, we become receptive astrologically to another way of viewing our experiences here on planet earth.. i think it puts our experience in a wider and more imaginative framework where the myths are capable of speaking individually to us in their own way.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiron

remember... i am trying all this on! my journey will be different then others.. chiron lost immortality, but i believe it was in exchange for releasing someone else from suffering.. perhaps in our ability to acknowledge our own mortality, we become more capable of showing compassion to others here on the planet.. there is something in the imagery of chiron of being half human and half animal... something about the symbol astrologically must dovetail with this idea and the conflict that it symbolizes... we may be gods, but we are also humans and what exactly is the difference as we play out our lives here at present?

yes, in all i read chiron shares something in common with saturn and might be perceived as a malefic, unless one embraces the higher vibrations that might be associated with the imagery.. the world is riddled with conflict, but there is also something greater behind it all too.. are we capable of seeing this and raising our consciousness to the level of something that transcends the pain and suffering of the world? chiron also thought of as a ''teacher'' so again - some affinity with saturn seems prevalent here..

chiron is also associated with music and in so far as music can uplift and liberate us from our daily challenges, chiron may offer this bridge between the person and the gods too... in this sense, chiron sounds like a bridge that we may or may not take to another place beyond the suffering.. i like the image of a bridge with 2 different places and ends on either side of the bridge..

i am not quite finished the book by liz greene..some of it seems like she is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, but overall i have enjoyed the book.. i can't past the blurring of lines between chiron imagery and saturn imagery in her book, although she works at making a convincing presentation without being challenged by this..

now onto something different..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

yesterday aj happened to share with me some interesting details that coincided with a poster on marjorie orrs site sharing an interesting perspective on the role of chiron.. i' like to share all that here for future consideration on the role of chiron..

the july 4th 1776 chart has a chiron return this year.. aj's quote below -

"The US July 4th, 1776 chart is having a Chiron return in April. The return occurs on April 20, 2024, the day of the Jupiter-Uranus conjunction."

and later -
"There are actually 3 returns.
Tropically, the 1st return happens on April 20th, which coincides with the tJu and tUr conjunction. There is also an eclipse on April 8th at 19Ar (tropical). Exactly on the US natal Chiron.
2nd on November 8th, 2024
3rd on February 18th, 2025

The sidereal returns are much later. It is always interesting to see the large differences over time between tropical vs sidereal stuff.
The first sidereal return of Chiron is on July 22nd, when it stations for a few days before going retrograde on July 31st.
The eclipse of April 8th is conjunct transiting Chiron at 25Pi (sidereal)."

if that wasn't enough, a poster named candy at marjorie orrs site shared this below..

"There are three presidents born in the summer of 1946:

Donald Trump: born 14 June 1946
George W Bush: born 6 July 1946
Bill Clinton: born 19 August 1946

Between them they’ve governed for 20 years.

I think it’s to do with the Saturn at 14 Libra 46 in the USA astrological chart.

Dubya has Chiron at 15 Libra 25, Trump has Chiron at 14 Libra 54. Clinton has Chiron at 18 Libra 52.

Clinton has Venus at 11 Libra 07 trine Uranus at 21 Gemini 8. George W Bush has Jupiter at 18 Libra 8 trine Uranus at 19 Gemini 9. Trump has Jupiter at 17 Libra 27 trine Uranus at 17 Gemini 53."

now, maybe all of this is just a dumb note and coincidence or perhaps there is some merit to the idea of considering the role of chiron in an astro chart... i don't know... i do get the impression of usa election nov 2024 is an especially important and critical one.. perhaps the symbolism of chiron has some strong relevance to this coming election.... perhaps others will see something that i am incapable of seeing..

jay clayton passed away.. here is a song she sang that is quite beautiful.

https://youtu.be/UFhQFIiJh1s?list=OLAK5 ... kEw2Oq0B_o

Interesting James! Love Jay Clayton, that's my style of music!

I am also dubious about AI or should I say of what human beings can do with that.
Chatbots are a fascinating and evolving field of artificial intelligence, and they have a lot of potential and challenges for the future. The best way is to look at it as a 'personal assistant'.
I am still waiting for the sequence where I will ask my personal assistant to look into one of my databases and find for example, how many of them have SU/MO = AS and see what they have in common.

And here is more...

The first conversational robot on the Internet is not a clear-cut answer, as different definitions and criteria may apply. However, based on the web search results, here are some possible candidates:

- ELIZA: ELIZA was the first chatbot ever, developed by MIT professor Joseph Weizenbaum in the 1960s. It was designed to mimic a psychotherapist, using pattern matching and substitution to respond to the user's input. ELIZA was originally run on a mainframe computer, but it was later ported to the Internet and became accessible to the public¹².
- Cleverbot: Cleverbot is a chatbot that uses artificial intelligence to learn from its previous conversations with humans. It was created by British AI scientist Rollo Carpenter in 1997, and it was launched on the Internet in 2006. Cleverbot can chat about anything and everything, and it sometimes displays humor, emotion, and creativity⁵.
- ChatGPT: ChatGPT is the first widely used AI chatbot, based on a deep learning model called GPT-3. It was released in late 2022 by OpenAI, a research organization dedicated to creating and promoting beneficial artificial intelligence. ChatGPT can generate coherent and engaging responses, using natural language processing and machine learning to communicate with the user. ChatGPT can also impersonate historical figures, write essays, and create other types of content³⁴.
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Back to Chiron and what my personal assistant found out...

Synodic cycle

The synodic cycle of Chiron is the period of time between two consecutive conjunctions of Chiron and the Sun, as seen from the Earth. It is also known as the Chiron return, as it marks the return of Chiron to the same position in the zodiac as it was at the time of birth¹. The synodic cycle of Chiron is about 50 years long, but it varies depending on the eccentricity of Chiron's orbit². The synodic cycle of Chiron represents the process of healing, transformation, and spiritual growth, as Chiron is the wounded healer archetype in astrology³.

The synodic cycle of Chiron can be divided into eight phases, each lasting about six years. Each phase corresponds to a different aspect of Chiron's relationship with the Sun, and has a different meaning and purpose for the individual. The phases are:

- Phase 1: Chiron conjunct Sun (0°): This is the beginning of the cycle, and it occurs around the age of 50. It is a time of crisis and challenge, as the individual faces their deepest wound and their life purpose. It is also a time of opportunity and potential, as the individual can heal their wound and embrace their true self³⁴.
- Phase 2: Chiron sextile Sun (60°): This is the second phase of the cycle, and it occurs around the age of 56. It is a time of creativity and expression, as the individual explores their talents and gifts. It is also a time of learning and teaching, as the individual shares their wisdom and experience with others³⁴.
- Phase 3: Chiron square Sun (90°): This is the third phase of the cycle, and it occurs around the age of 62. It is a time of tension and conflict, as the individual faces their limitations and fears. It is also a time of growth and change, as the individual overcomes their obstacles and challenges³⁴.
- Phase 4: Chiron trine Sun (120°): This is the fourth phase of the cycle, and it occurs around the age of 68. It is a time of harmony and balance, as the individual integrates their inner and outer worlds. It is also a time of joy and gratitude, as the individual celebrates their achievements and blessings³⁴.
- Phase 5: Chiron opposition Sun (180°): This is the fifth phase of the cycle, and it occurs around the age of 74. It is a time of reflection and evaluation, as the individual reviews their life and their choices. It is also a time of awareness and insight, as the individual sees their wound and their purpose from a new perspective³⁴.
- Phase 6: Chiron trine Sun (240°): This is the sixth phase of the cycle, and it occurs around the age of 80. It is a time of peace and acceptance, as the individual reconciles their past and their present. It is also a time of compassion and forgiveness, as the individual heals their relationships and their self³⁴.
- Phase 7: Chiron square Sun (270°): This is the seventh phase of the cycle, and it occurs around the age of 86. It is a time of challenge and transformation, as the individual prepares for their final transition. It is also a time of courage and faith, as the individual trusts their inner guidance and their higher power³⁴.
- Phase 8: Chiron sextile Sun (300°): This is the eighth and final phase of the cycle, and it occurs around the age of 92. It is a time of completion and fulfillment, as the individual finishes their life journey and their soul mission. It is also a time of legacy and contribution, as the individual leaves their mark and their wisdom for the future generations³⁴.

These are the phases of the synodic cycle of Chiron, and how they can be interpreted in a meaningful way for the individual. By understanding and embracing the synodic cycle of Chiron, the individual can heal themselves and others, and transform their pain into wisdom.
----------------------------
Source: Conversation with Bing, 1/6/2024
(1) THE CYCLE OF CHIRON - Astro*Synthesis Astrology. http://astrosynthesis.com.au/wp-content ... -clark.pdf.
(2) Synodic Cycles in Astrology : Starzology. https://www.starzology.com/synodic_cycles/.
(3) Chiron Cycle Years – How Long Does Chiron Stay In A Sign? - Cosmic Deity. https://cosmicdeity.com/chiron-cycle-years/.
(4) What Your Chiron Sign Says About You & How To Calculate It - mindbodygreen. https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/ ... -about-you.
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Etymology

The etymology of Chiron is not very clear, but there are some possible sources and meanings for the name. According to the web search results, here are some of them:

- Chiron may come from the ancient Greek word χείρ (cheír), meaning "hand". This would imply that Chiron was "he of the skillful hands", a reference to his dexterity and diverse abilities¹³.
- Chiron may also come from the ancient Greek word κείρω (keírō), meaning "to cut off". This would suggest that Chiron was "he who was cut off", a reference to his separation from his parents and his fellow centaurs².
- Chiron may also be related to the ancient Greek word χειρονόητος (cheironóētos), meaning "made by hand". This would indicate that Chiron was "he who was made by hand", a reference to his artificial or unnatural origin as the son of Cronus and Philyra².
- Chiron may also be connected to the ancient Greek word χειρούργος (cheirourgos), meaning "surgeon". This would mean that Chiron was "he who was a surgeon", a reference to his knowledge and skill with medicine and healing².

These are just some of the possible etymologies of Chiron. The name may also have other origins or interpretations that are not known or recorded. Chiron is a complex and fascinating figure in Greek mythology, and his name reflects his multifaceted nature and role.
--------------------------
Source: Conversation with Bing, 1/6/2024
(1) Chiron | Etymology of Chiron by etymonline. https://www.etymonline.com/word/Chiron.
(2) Chiron – Mythopedia. https://mythopedia.com/topics/chiron.
(3) Chiron - Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiron.
(4) Chiron - Baby Name Meaning, Origin, and Popularity | Nameberry. https://nameberry.com/babyname/chiron.

thanks ouranos

thanks for sharing your take on AI more generally.. i did a gig once with jay clayton in victoria at hermmans jazz club about 25 years ago... it was louise rose, who actually hired me for the gig.. she was friends with jay who was living in seattle at the time.. https://www.lrose.com/index.php that is a link to louis roses website.. she is still alive and playing music.. she's an inspirational person/singer/musician/performer.. it was thru jay that i first heard the beautiful song 'weaver of dreams'.. in fact, i learned how to play it on the piano too.. that was thru exposure to the gig with jay and louise..

that synodic cycle your personal assistant shared with you... i suppose one can take the cycle and apply to their chart and replace sun with ''natal position of chiron'' to get a feel for this... i had chiron conjunct my sun in the past 1-2 years, so it is fairly fresh in my mind.. i think incorporating chiron in the chart has merit, but it is tricky the more points one includes in the astro chart... i also see the wisdom in ''less is more''..

the wounded healer is an interesting analogy.. i think everyone suffers a wound of some sort in life.. maybe it is our limited ability to be in tune with the universe, but knowing that it is possible and that sometimes we are in tune with the universe in some transcendental way.. i do think much of our challenges and growth comes in the realm of relationships, so the idea of 'chiron in love' is an interesting one.. in so far as we interact with others, we open ourselves up to all the potentials and pitfalls to connecting with others... in so far as we understand our own sensitivities, we might be able to understand the sensitivity of others.. i mostly think of saturn in this context, but liz greene makes a case for chiron behaving in a similar way.. the further out the planets are, the more the possibility of projecting these energies onto others... greene suggests hard aspects between the charts of 2 people involving chiron can go a few different ways depending on the maturity or insights of the individuals involved.... so much of this reminds me of what i have learned about the role of saturn in the chart, which is why i mentioned earlier, there is some similar symbolism between saturn and chiron..

but what i want to say is that in so far as we have been wounded, and are capable of healing our own wounds, we might be in the position to be a ''wounded healer''.... it beats inflicting wounds on ourselves or others!! i would use the same analogy for saturn for that matter, so although this term gets bandied around a lot in the astro community, i am not sure that it is the best or only term to use.. perhaps the concept of losing our immortality or coming to terms with our mortality that is also just as meaningful in the long run.. if you know you only have so much time on planet earth, you will probably do the best you can to make the most of it.. what is that exactly? i suppose it is having an awareness of our own mortality.. or maybe getting comfortable with the concept of death perhaps..

chiron is situated in a fairly neutral or friendly place in my chart with no real hard aspects - only soft ones.. but at the same time i can watch it move over points in my chart and do recall the first chiron return coincided with some significant health issues for me.. so again - i think it has merit to consider this placement.. it might be more problematical for others, but again, i mostly go back to the importance of saturn overshadowing the relevance of chiron with regard to all this... but maybe others see and process it differently.. that's all for now!

2 examples in the book on chiron - prince charles - now king charles, with sun conjunct chiron and also greta thunberg - sun conjunct chiron.. anyone interested can consider these 2 charts in regards sun-chiron conjunctions..

I also have a sun conjunct Chiron an 8 degree orb, Chiron in the 6th house it is part of a major aspect pattern of a mutable grand cross & close to the descendant, the other planets in the cross are Pluto in the 12th rising Mars on the MC
& Jupiter on the IC. Mercury my Asc ruler burnt by the Suns rays.
When Chiron transited the Sun over the cross on the descendant my partner suddenly afflicted with corneal erosion a kind of scratch on the cornea which made blinking extremely painful it took almost a year of treatment to nurse her to normality, With Chiron here there is a psychological wounding in respect of the father, or rather I have been wounded for my fathers actions, also my child soul was lost from at about 8 years of age & only recently has it been released from bondage, a kind of shamanic release.
With Pluto in the 12th in the cross formation opposing Chiron there has been a lot of dark energies that require a lot of intuition & work to clear myself from, but the wound is there & like Chiron it was others battles which wounded me.

Thanks, James, Ouranos, and Zosma, for all of the elaborations on Chiron and your personal stories.

The rabbit hole into AI was interesting too. I have not had much time to investigate Chiron other than very casually. Natally, I have a combust Chiron as well, but it is a little wider than Zosma's at 10 degrees and oriental to the Sun but like James, there are no hard aspects; just a close sextile to Jupiter.

When putting transiting Chiron against eight impactful past events in my natal chart, the result was mixed. In a few of the more cathartic events, there were no substantive contacts at all, which surprised me a little after reading the personal stories shared here. There were transiting hits from Chiron that supported the event.

All in all, it was about 50/50. Anecdotal results, to say the least, but still promising enough to make it worthwhile to pursue further. I will add Chiron to my displayed points and keep an eye on it over the next few months in my working charts.

Be well.

zosma and aj

thanks for sharing your perspective on this.. unfortunately much of the astrological views are anecdotal and very little of any of it is based on rigorous scientific methodology.. but like my dreams last night - no one is going to be able to put them under a microscope to analyze their relevance either.. it is easier to dismiss it all, which is what some in the astronomical community and wider community actually do with regard astrology.. of course people in the astrological community will pick and choose what they do or don't look into more closely as well.. "i'm a traditional astrologer you know! i don't look at chiron!" - that would be another response... i don't know the answer to this.. is it possible to do a scientifically binding study of astrology? i believe that is what michel and francois gauguelin did...

who inside the astro community embraced much of what the gauguelins concluded, let alone even read any of it?

are astrologers a real hindbound lot unwilling to entertain ideas that run up against their subjective orientation?

is astrology only meant as some sort of divination tool, as expressed in the horary branch of astrology?

should astrology ditch the idea of incorporating psychology?

how many more questions would you like me to prattle off on? lol...

thanks for the input!

https://theastrologypodcast.com/2018/09 ... rs-effect/

if only i could bring them back from the dead, i would get them to do a study on chiron!!!

I think using Chiron around themes of illnesses will convince of its value, I have used it to predict the exact day a cancelled operation will take place for a client, And lately for a client who had Chiron on the apex of a tight yod with Pluto & Neptune sextile at the base of the Yod,her progressed Asc triggered this together with an eclipse she had no issues with health when she spoke with me,I warned her to take care of her health around the coming eclipse,it transpires that she is on chemotherapy for a malignant tumour uncovered during routine screening a few weeks after the eclipse.

thanks zosma for your insights and anecdotes here... my experience has been virtually the same... all the coincidences are adding up..

james_m wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 5:25 pm how many more questions would you like me to prattle off on? lol...

Well, James, talk about diving into the rabbit hole of all rabbit holes! LOL.
These questions are more profound than trying to figure out why cats love knocking things off tables. It's oblique to the topic, but you did post the questions first.

I've got a constellation of opinions for them, but empirical answers? Nope, not in my celestial toolkit, but here are some thingish thoughts.

Maybe we astrologers are just a bunch of starry-eyed dreamers, playing crystal ball with the future based on the whims of celestial dance moves. Idealistic? Whimsical? Toss in "gullible," and voila, you've sketched the portrait of our very own cosmic club. And don't fret; I'm often merrily caught in the wide net of idealism and gullibility myself.

Before anyone drafts that PM, hold your horses and hear me out. We're gullible because we're trying to decipher realities that could make most people's heads spin faster than Mercury during retrograde. It's a wild ride navigating the cosmic spaghetti bowl, searching for reason and causes amidst the apparent celestial chaos. Sure, we might get tangled in our own star-studded webs at times, but hey, we're just reaching for the stars—literally! We often forget that when faced with competing explanations or theories, the one with the fewest assumptions or entities is often the most likely to be correct. In other words, it encourages choosing the simplest explanation that adequately explains a phenomenon or problem. That way, we minimize unnecessary complexity and avoid introducing unnecessary elements into an explanation.

Now, what can untangle this spaghetti bowl of naivety and gullibility? A hefty serving of common sense that is stirred with intuition and a dash of astrological technique. It's no easy task, but hey, we're cosmic chefs in this wild celestial kitchen.

I know you will have some thoughts on this, James, so don't hold back. Give us some of that jazz musician's stream of consciousness. LOL.

Everyone else is welcome to comment as well.