thanks aj,

what you say is very well thought out and makes sense.. i was thinking of how venus can never be more then 45 from the sun, but in this chart it is opposite.. that is the part that doesn't make sense to me with regard to the composite placement of venus, but sure - what you say makes sense..

the ketu conjunction ascendant would require a lot of letting go and that is never easy for anyone, but especially countries with a history of tension - however short it is historically.. meddling never really works and yet that is the basis for a lot of the history to where we are here now.. can everyone let go this desire to meddle in others affairs? it appears not.. but i think that is what ketu-ascendant is asking for.. the other side of it is rahu in the 7th - putting one's self interest over the interests of others.. it's not a recipe for relationship success either...

i think the moon square uranus is also very challenging... the moon square saturn has to be included in this.. it makes one wonder what can be transcended, verses what has to be lived out and overcome.. i guess it is much the same thing said differently..

this particular relationship seems to take up a lot of mental and media bandwidth on a periodic basis... could this be the jupiter on the midheaven and it being square the nodal axis, drawing so much attention to itself? then there is the close trine of pluto in the 9th to ketu rising.. perhaps that is again more of the same..

i was thinking more about this conflict and how it seems to be encapsulated in the focus on these 2 countries and why it is this way... what comes to me is the importance of the 9th house pluto in leo in an exact trine to ketu rising... pluto is also in a 30 degree aspect to jupiter in the midheaven...

on the trip by plane back from france, i was able to see the movie that came out the past year - oppenheimer.. its a 3 hour show, so catching it on a 9 hour flight was nice timing.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppenheimer_(film).. the film is about the fellow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Robert_Oppenheimer
who oversaw the development of the atomic bomb and lived to regret much of what came out of it.. we are confronted with a similar dynamic in the ongoing relationship in the world today via the dynamic between these 2 countries .. israel is said to already possess nuclear weapons although it has not signed onto the treaty for the non proliferation of nuclear weapons.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on ... ar_Weapons
meanwhile iran has a fatwa against iran making them, but their has been an ongoing fear on the part of the west of iran procuring and using them...

this conundrum seems to be summed up in the pluto in leo in the 9th trine to ketu rising in the ascendant which is exact.. maybe i am mistaken.. fear is irrational... power and control over others on the other hand, seems to come out of this same fear... these nuclear weapons are supposed to be some sort of protection from these same fears, but they never really are.. so maybe that is the nature of pluto?? the way i see it the world/planet continues to struggle with this challenge and it is being seen in the dynamics played out between israel and iran... all these unconscious fears however unrealistic and self created, are the ongoing basis for this struggle that humanity and the planet is facing here... will a fanatic leader of a country resort to such actions? how do we get countries in conflict with one another to step away from this desire to lord it over others, or worse, threaten one another with nuclear weapons??

what am i missing?

james_m wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 3:47 pm the ketu conjunction ascendant would require a lot of letting go and that is never easy for anyone, but especially countries with a history of tension - however short it is historically.. meddling never really works and yet that is the basis for a lot of the history to where we are here now.. can everyone let go this desire to meddle in others affairs? it appears not.. but i think that is what ketu-ascendant is asking for.. the other side of it is rahu in the 7th - putting one's self interest over the interests of others.. it's not a recipe for relationship success either...

James: All are good points. There is definitely a lot to be gleaned from this chart.
2 almost simultaneous posts! Wow, I'll respond to each one individually. LOL
In a composite, 1H is the inner state of the relationship. The lord of the ascendant Jupiter conjunct the MC. Jupiter can show areas of growth, but more apt to this chart, 'support' might be a better concept to apply here. Jupiter is conjunct with the MC; there are strong aspirations and a need to be heard, recognized, or supported by the wider world. So I agree with your delineation below about the Ju-MC t-square with the nodal axis across asc/desc.
I might add that the clash of ideaologies is dramatically shown in this configuration (enhanced by Pluto's influence on the asc from the 9H), and Gemini on the 7th the world sees both countries as very distinct individuals, each moving in different directions. Pluto's exact trine to Ketu (SN) shows sudden and catastrophic power conflicts.

james_m wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 3:47 pm this particular relationship seems to take up a lot of mental and media bandwidth on a periodic basis... could this be the jupiter on the midheaven and it being square the nodal axis, drawing so much attention to itself? then there is the close trine of pluto in the 9th to ketu rising.. perhaps that is again more of the same..

james_m wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:54 pm i was thinking more about this conflict and how it seems to be encapsulated in the focus on these 2 countries and why it is this way... what comes to me is the importance of the 9th house pluto in leo in an exact trine to ketu rising... pluto is also in a 30 degree aspect to jupiter in the midheaven...

on the trip by plane back from france, i was able to see the movie that came out the past year - oppenheimer.. its a 3 hour show, so catching it on a 9 hour flight was nice timing.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppenheimer_(film).. the film is about the fellow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Robert_Oppenheimer
who oversaw the development of the atomic bomb and lived to regret much of what came out of it.. we are confronted with a similar dynamic in the ongoing relationship in the world today via the dynamic between these 2 countries .. israel is said to already possess nuclear weapons although it has not signed onto the treaty for the non proliferation of nuclear weapons.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on ... ar_Weapons
meanwhile iran has a fatwa against iran making them, but their has been an ongoing fear on the part of the west of iran procuring and using them...

this conundrum seems to be summed up in the pluto in leo in the 9th trine to ketu rising in the ascendant which is exact.. maybe i am mistaken.. fear is irrational... power and control over others on the other hand, seems to come out of this same fear... these nuclear weapons are supposed to be some sort of protection from these same fears, but they never really are.. so maybe that is the nature of pluto?? the way i see it the world/planet continues to struggle with this challenge and it is being seen in the dynamics played out between israel and iran... all these unconscious fears however unrealistic and self created, are the ongoing basis for this struggle that humanity and the planet is facing here... will a fanatic leader of a country resort to such actions? how do we get countries in conflict with one another to step away from this desire to lord it over others, or worse, threaten one another with nuclear weapons??

what am i missing?

James: You've rightly identified the fear-power paradox. The need for control often stems from a deep-seated fear of vulnerability. Nuclear weapons, in this context, become a distorted symbol of strength, masking this underlying fear.

The Pluto-Ketu connection highlights unconscious fears driving conflict. Both Israel and Iran, with their complex histories, might be acting out of these anxieties.

Your question about how to move beyond these dynamics and foster peace is a profound and multifaceted one. I ruminate on this problem myself and, like many, come away feeling quite powerless in the end.

Ultimately, addressing the desire for dominance and the threat of nuclear weapons requires a comprehensive and sustained effort by the international community, governments, civil society, and individuals to promote peace, cooperation, and security.

Yet, a great armchair answer still does not bridge the question of how to achieve it.

The biggest problem to get under control, as I see it, is overcoming the sickness of greed. Like a contagion, it has spread insidiously through the veins of national and internal politics alike, corroding the very foundations of governance and corroding the trust of the governed. At its core, greed manifests as an insatiable hunger for power, wealth, and control, often at the expense of the common good and the well-being of the populace.

I will catch myself here. Though I have a lot more to say on the matter, it is not astrological in nature.

Be Well.

aj,

thanks for your thoughtful replies.. it is difficult to not get philosophical and far removed from the astrology here.. we try to find answers to what is happening in the world today in a bigger sense and the idea that mundane astrology - the study of countries astrological charts (and more) could be used from gaining a better understanding is an attractive one! and yet, the plurality of possible charts - take the usa national chart for example - makes it much more complicated..

now some could say i have made understanding this iran-israel 2024 dynamic even more complicated by utilizing combined charts with 2 of a possible number of 5 or 6 charts in use for iran and israel... regardless of this, i think there is merit in their use and do believe some of the symbolism off this combined chart certainly fits very well...

is the use of nuclear weapons a fear on many people's minds today? sure.. was it 20, 30 or 40 years ago, or specifically during the cuban missile crisis? of course it was then too... does poland agreeing to place nuclear weapons on its soil in the past week or two cause some anxiousness on the part of some? i am sure it does too.. https://www.politico.eu/article/poland- ... duda-nato/

how does one address this ongoing angst that many on the planet feel with regard to this topic? i know i am casting a wide net and one has to start somewhere.. it seems to me their is no better place to start then with trying to understand the iran-israel dynamic minus all the propaganda we have and continue to be fed with..

as it turns out the transit of saturn at present ( sidereally ) is at 22 degrees aquarius - in opposition to this same pluto in the combined chart at 22 leo... it will be exact in the next week or so... there are some other interesting transits taking place on that combined chart i have shared here earlier as well.. it seems like people are at the mercy of their leaders.. and the leaders when they aren't busy serving the corporate interests, might have a moment to reflect on peoples needs, but that almost seems like an after thought today.. meanwhile the wars, threat of wars and etc, certainly works extremely well for the military industry regardless what ''side'' one is on..

i guess i was hoping for a break with the jupiter-uranus conjunction, lol.. maybe there has been one, but it is hard to perceive.. i know andre barbault discussed the very interesting planetary alignments of 2026 in a positive light... this coincides with the saturn/neptune conjunction and etc. etc.. whether one looks at this sidereally or tropically, there is a more favourable lining up of the outer planets in this time frame.. it would be nice if humanity could find a way out of the challenges it has to work out here..

one final note.. i realized much later that israels bombing of the iranian embassy in damascus on april 1st, coincided with one of the charts in use for iran - april 1st, 1979... i do wonder if that shows up in the april 1st 1979 chart for use with iran? below is the chart for this transit event to damascus on the outside to the april 1st chart i am using for iran - 3pm, april 1st, 1979 tehran...



i suppose the obvious connections from the april 1st event to the april 1st iranian chart are the transit of rahu/sun to the natal sun ( all 9th house/sign pisces which includes a natal mars in pisces) while t saturn is transiting the 8th and approaching natal ketu in the 8th... t mars is also in the 8th by transit.. t mars is about 1 1/2 degree opposite the natal saturn in irans chart... some of this has merit.. also the mars -and saturn transit is to the iranian suns 12th house while being in the 10th house to its natal moon and ascendant ruler.. in fact - mars transit is in a very close square to the moon here.. more food for thought.. i still favour the feb 1st chart, but there are some relevant connections from the event of april 1st in damascus to this april 1st chart..

james_m wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 6:55 pm i suppose the obvious connections from the april 1st event to the april 1st iranian chart are the transit of rahu/sun to the natal sun ( all 9th house/sign pisces which includes a natal mars in pisces) while t saturn is transiting the 8th and approaching natal ketu in the 8th... t mars is also in the 8th by transit.. t mars is about 1 1/2 degree opposite the natal saturn in irans chart... some of this has merit.. also the mars -and saturn transit is to the iranian suns 12th house while being in the 10th house to its natal moon and ascendant ruler.. in fact - mars transit is in a very close square to the moon here.. more food for thought.. i still favour the feb 1st chart, but there are some relevant connections from the event of april 1st in damascus to this april 1st chart..

James: It's tough to judge which chart is the most valid for Iran. All of those events in the early weeks and months of the revolution were significant for their own reasons. It could be very possible that they all have relevance to some degree. Campion addresses this in the Introduction to World Horoscopes, as I remember. It's the tough job of the astrologer to determine which one(s) actually work in prediction.

It's one thing to have transits or progressions hit sensitive points in a chart, but does the event, good or bad, make sense in the context of the natal chart itself?

Be Well.

thanks aj

this goes with my idea that more then one chart can work, although it is easier with a country like turkey for example - which just has one to work with ( i am sure someone can find another chart other then just the 1923 one)...

does any event make sense in the context of the natal chart itself? i am guessing you are including the combined chart in all of this? again - i do believe combined charts hold merit and yes it is an important question that i try to answer...

as a thought exercise, i did a combined chart for the april 1st, 3pm 1979 tehran with the 4pm israel may 14, 1948 tel aviv chart... below is what i come up with..



pluto rising in the ascendant and being squared by the mars-midheaven conjunction.. does that look like ''power struggle'' to you and one that could entail violence as a means of resolving the conflict? i know i am being simplistic here.. mars rules the 4th and 9th, is the malefic of the opposite sect and in taurus here.. what could go wrong? lol... mars is at the midpoint by square of the uranus-pluto square as well... i suppose i could fall back on that fun tool of horary astrologers and say, well - mars and venus are in a mutual exchange, so that makes it all better! clearly i have no business on commenting on astrological ideas that only make sense in a certain context.. both mars and venus are not well placed and i think that is unhelpful at minimum, especially for relationships or working out conflict..

and yet, sun in aries in the 9th - perhaps all the international observers want to resolve this conundrum and find a way out... sun sextile moon seems favourable on the surface... sun rules the ascendant so it shows much promise... moon rules the 12th which is less glamorous and more difficult... if this combined chart has merit, the transit of saturn presently at 22 aquarius and moving towards the 7th house cusp is calling for greater maturity and responsibility... perhaps in this sense the chart has merit.. this is exactly what is needed.. not sure how that works out in the present political environment...

using the transits of april 1st, 5pm damascus 2024 to this chart on the outer wheel with this 'combined' chart on the inside, appear as seen below..



what we have here is saturn transit about 1 degree past the natal mars in the midheaven, while transit mars is about 1 degree off an exact opposition to the rising uranus in the combined chart.. the transiting angles hit onto the saturn in leo rising, highlighting all the weaknesses within this relationship chart as well.. transit sun is also in a fairly close 135 to this same natal saturn in the combo chart.. there is a 1 and 1/2 degree approaching square between transit pluto and natal sun which also makes sense... i suppose we can see how some or any of this gets resolved with the continuing transits of saturn to the descendant and pluto to the square of sun, although i am not sure the pluto makes the exact square before going retrograde again..

i think this combined chart also has merit and i think it fits with what is happening here... perhaps my posts here are ruminations on the possible relevance of more then one chart and of the value in combined charts... i know most people like ''firm'' convictions ( trump will lose ) and tend to shy away from tentative thoughts that remain in the realm of speculation, but hey - we are all different and to each their own..

[/quote]

james_m wrote: Wed May 01, 2024 3:25 pm pluto rising in the ascendant and being squared by the mars-midheaven conjunction.. does that look like ''power struggle'' to you and one that could entail violence as a means of resolving the conflict? i know i am being simplistic here.. mars rules the 4th and 9th, is the malefic of the opposite sect and in taurus here.. what could go wrong? lol... .

James: For the composite, between the Iran-Islamic Republic chart (April 1st, 1979) and Israel Independence (4pm) you hit the astrological nail on the head.
Pluto on the ascendant in a composite is complicated, with lots of tumultuous interactions. It speaks to me of manipulations on both sides. Throw the Mars-MC square in there too, and you get, well, cats and dogs. I might add that it is made worse by Ketu's (NN) aspect from the 5th House that mundanely deals with diplomats and ambassodors.

Be Well.

i am glad you like that symbolic relevance here aj! now, can we make a prediction off this chart? i heard israel bombed somewhere outside damascus again today, but i have no confirmation on this.. do you think the transit of saturn to the descendant will strengthen the possibility of neutrality and objectivity, or will it push the pluto rising into overdrive? perhaps the role that russia, china and the usa play with regard to iran and israel will have some stabilizing effect? that would be a positive outcome here... i readthis article earlier today which offered some relief..

https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/497727 ... d-security