james_m wrote: Wed May 08, 2024 4:30 pm hi jane

i read ben dykes latin translation of abu mashar - book 3 of persian nativities on solar revolutions and got a lot from that book.. it motivated me to pick up the book i think you are now processing - abu mashar on the revolutions of the years of the nativities - the arabic translation... i am on page 136 at present - still called 'the introduction' until page 143! its a slow process for me.. i am tossing out some of the stuff and keen to know other parts too.. i guess i am treating it like i would if i went to a chinese smorgasboard, except this is suppose to be arabic i guess!! good luck in your astro adventures.. thanks for the updates..

It is a bit of a slog; I've been back and forth so much in my copy it's beginning to fall apart I'm not sure he's thrown in more techniques than Valens but he's certainly thrown in lengthier ways of applying them. I still need a few more back and forths in the Book IX on the months, day, and hours, he does some very odd stuff in there, like profecting backward for the months if the Asc is in a cardinal (?) sign...need to double check...I've completely ignored what he's advised on the fardar, the 12ths, and the 9ths simply because I'm worried my brain will explode. For now just trying to flesh out the bare bones of his method. If in your reading you notice any egregious misrepresentations of his work on my part please let me know; happy astro digging

thanks jane!

i am having a similar experience.. interestingly enough some of the indian astrology i have read the past 6 or so years has given my a different window into some of these ideas, especially the one you mentioned about profecting backwards depending on the sign, lol! the jaimini astrology literature is a bit whacky like this and it made me think abu mashar was exposed to indian astrological ideas more then we know.. of course the 9ths idea is definitely an idea from indian astrology, but moving forwards or backwards depending on the sign is a type of jaimini technique i've been exposed to.. i can't say it did anything other then confuse me, but i know it gets used in indian astrology.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaimini_Sutras - i kind of realized i would need another lifetime to get an understanding of some of these ideas which is why i am scanning ben dykes translation of abu mashars work to pick and choose what i might be able to use from it - again the smorgasboard analogy!

maybe martin or aj will chime in here, as they might have something to say about any cross pollination between abu mashar and indian astrology.. i am sure it is their, but i don't know his history, or the history of persian or arabic astrology.. cheers...

james_m wrote: Wed May 08, 2024 10:04 pm maybe martin or aj will chime in here, as they might have something to say about any cross pollination between abu mashar and indian astrology.. i am sure it is their, but i don't know his history, or the history of persian or arabic astrology.. cheers...

Hey James: Here's an abridged extract from one of my books that I am working on now.

One of the primary conduits through which Indian astrology influenced its Islamic counterpart was during the medieval period, particularly through the translation movement centered in Baghdad and other cosmopolitan centers of the Islamic world. It's important to note that during this time, there was extensive cultural exchange between the Islamic world and the Indian subcontinent, facilitated by trade routes and intellectual centers such as Baghdad and Samarkand. Indian scholars and texts found eager audiences among Islamic intellectuals, leading to the dissemination and integration of Indian knowledge, including astrology, into Islamic scholarship.

Islamic scholars like Abu Ma'shar al-Balkhi (787–886 CE), known in the West as Albumasar, incorporated these techniques into their astrological treatises. Abu Ma'shar's "Great Introduction to Astrology" synthesized Indian and Hellenistic astrological concepts, blending them into a comprehensive system that would influence astrological thought in the Islamic world for centuries to come.

Scholars like Al-Biruni (973–1048 CE), renowned for his encyclopedic knowledge of various cultures and sciences, played a pivotal role in translating Indian astrological texts into Arabic. Al-Biruni's works, such as "Kitab al-Tafhim" (Book of Instruction in the Elements of the Art of Astrology), served as a further bridge between Indian and Islamic astrological traditions.

While there isn't a lot of information about Indian astrologers specifically serving in the courts of the Caliphs, there were a handful of Indian scholars and intellectuals that did have significant influence in the Islamic world during the medieval period. We mostly know of them from the books they wrote that are mentioned by other authors, but as far as I know, they are lost to us now. The broader influence of Indian astrology on Islamic astrology is evident in the synthesis of ideas and the exchange of knowledge that characterized the intellectual milieu of the medieval Islamic world. There was extensive cultural exchange between the Islamic empire and the Indian subcontinent, facilitated by trade routes and intellectual centers such as Baghdad and Samarkand. Indian scholars and texts found eager audiences among Islamic intellectuals, leading to the dissemination and integration of Indian knowledge, including astrology, into Islamic scholarship. More important than astrology was the translation and introduction of Indian mathematics and numerals, or what we call Arabic numerals now.

The best-known Indian astrologer that we do know of is Kankah al-Hindi, also known as Kanak (a contemporary of Abu Ma'shar). Our understanding is pretty murky about his life. He was an Indian astrologer who made his way to Bagdhad and gained prominence in the court of the Abbasid Caliph Al-Ma'mun (786–833 CE) during the 9th century. His mention in the Arabic source attests to his status. He was renowned for his expertise in astrology, translating various Indian texts, etc. Kankah was highly regarded by the Caliph, who entrusted him with important astrological consultations and tasks. His contributions likely played a role in the integration of Indian astrological knowledge into Islamic astrology, enriching the astrological traditions of the time.

His presence highlights the cross-cultural interactions and intellectual exchanges that characterized the vibrant intellectual atmosphere of medieval Baghdad.

Maybe too much information. LOL

thanks aj

that is all quite fascinating and i appreciate you sharing all this...

my limited understanding is how islam became very big after the 800's and it was expansionary too... i recall having traveled to parts of northern india and being made aware of the mughal empire - the castle in jodphur was an important trigger for this.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehrangarh

thanks for your input here.. it is fascinating the cross pollination of cultures and ideologies...

james_m wrote: Wed May 08, 2024 10:04 pm thanks jane!

i am having a similar experience.. interestingly enough some of the indian astrology i have read the past 6 or so years has given my a different window into some of these ideas, especially the one you mentioned about profecting backwards depending on the sign, lol! the jaimini astrology literature is a bit whacky like this and it made me think abu mashar was exposed to indian astrological ideas more then we know.. of course the 9ths idea is definitely an idea from indian astrology, but moving forwards or backwards depending on the sign is a type of jaimini technique i've been exposed to.. i can't say it did anything other then confuse me, but i know it gets used in indian astrology.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaimini_Sutras - i kind of realized i would need another lifetime to get an understanding of some of these ideas which is why i am scanning ben dykes translation of abu mashars work to pick and choose what i might be able to use from it - again the smorgasboard analogy!

Thank James, I've read very little on Indian astrology; I was aware the 9ths were Indian in origin but was totally unaware that Vedic astrology used backward and forward profections.

Had a horrible time trying to figure out how anyone could keep track of all the things Abu Ma'shar advises we look at to judge a year; the best I can boil it down to is look for planets that have become activated by:

- having a share in the distribution
- by being the Lord of the Year or positioned in the profected 1st or one of its angles
- by ruling the SR Asc or being in the sign of the SR 1st or one of its angles
- by returning to its natal position or being square or opposed to it (trine and sextile appear less impactful)
- by being in a strong aspect in the SR that reinforces a relationship held in the radix

The Asc rulers of the the radix, profection, and SR always appear to be active in the year according to their condition in each chart; activation at other levels or by a SR aspect that enhances or harms their basic condition. As well, any aspects to the profected 1st can be considered active for the year. Note, this not everything that can be active but only what appeared to me to be the most relevant based on his examples.

Once identified the activated planet(s) are examined for their condition in the radix, profection, and SR to determine how impactful they may be, keeping in mind that activation in all three charts gives the strongest indications with:

- distributors being strongest in producing indications from the radix
- the Lord of the year being next in strength for producing what was promised in the radix (if it reinforces radix indications), otherwise for specific, less impactful events, in the year
- anything in the SR that reinforces profected or radix indications will tend to express in those terms; strong indications in the SR give still less impactful events that will likely fade when the year is over

So, looking at each year:
1991 The distributor is Saturn sharing with himself by opposition; as the ruler of the radix Asc his events will strongly affect the life. He is in the 9th (travel, publications, foreign affairs) and rules the 1st and 12th. The 1st is the 5th (children) from the 9th (quadrant houses) and the 12th is 4th (family, property) from the 9th.

Saturn falls in the profected 6th and rules P9 (reinforcing radix indications) and P8; connections with P6 and P8 indicate unfortunate events during the year. In the SR, he falls in the SR 1st (reinforcing his rulership of the 1st in the radix) and he is in the SR 3rd (travel, communications) in opposition (2°) to Jupiter in the 9th and ruling the SR 5th (reinforcing radix indications). The 6th/9th emphasis may indicate travel for work purposes during the year.

Therefore we could expect events involving foreign travel (9th), children (5th), and communications or publications (3rd/9th). These are apt to be unfortunate and possibly unlooked for (6th, 8th, oppositions). In the radix Saturn's square and trine both fall in the 1st, with no aspect falling in the 12th so while he is unfortunate (being ex conditione and retrograde) he is connected primarily with 'good' places (9th, 10th) with respect to the Queen's lived life (1st) so any harm caused in the year is not apt to permanently affect her life.

Mercury is active by being the Lord of the Year. He is in P10 (honor, reputation) with Uranus (the unexpected) and rules P1 (life) and P4 (family). In the radix he occupies the 2nd and rules the 5th and 8th. In the SR, he is in the 6th and rules the 8th and 11th. So no strong reinforcements of his radix conditions although the connections with the 6th, 8th, and 5th are areas of life also being reinforced by Saturn. In the SR, he is in partile square with the Moon in the 9th, another indication for travel during the year and he is transiting the profected 10th which increases the likelihood of travel for work.

Two main events during the period were a 13 day tour of the USA in May where she was met, in Dallas, with protests over Britain's role in Northern Ireland and South Africa. And, in January 1992, the release of scandalous photos of Sarah Ferguson, her son's wife, and their eventual separation. So a difficult but not horrendous period.

Interestingly, using derived houses, Prince Andrew is her 3rd child which would put him in the 9th (counting every 2nd sign from the 5th as one child). The publications were about him and his wife (ruled by the 3rd) and the emphasis in the SR was on the 3rd/9th axis.

1992 The year begins with Saturn distributing with himself by opposition but on August 21 the Asc moves into the bounds of Mars in Taurus, still sharing by opposition with Saturn until November 11, when Saturn hands off to the sextile of Uranus. Handing off from malefics to malefics is highly unfavourable.

Saturn is in the profected 5th (children) ruling the profected 7th (conflict, marriage) and 8th (finances). In the SR he occupies and rules the 1st and squares radix Saturn who is positioned in the 9th. The first part of the year (April 23) saw Princess Anne finalize her divorce from Captain Mark Phillips (notably the 7th is the 2nd from the 5th, and Anne is the Queen's second child); Diana's book publication (June 6) followed by more photos of Sarah Ferguson and the release of risque phone conversations between Diana and James Gilbey (Aug 20-24), all of which caused major publicity (9th) problems for the royal children's marriages (7th) and the Queen personally, it happened just as Mars took over the management on August 21.

Mars is in the radix 1st, rules the 10th and co-rules the 2nd, where Aries is intercepted. Mars is in the 11th (associates, friends) from Aries and 10th from Scorpio. Mars, at 20 AQ, is in his own (Egyptian) term so any damage he causes will be limited and directly affect the Queen (1st), her reputation (10th), and finances (2nd); probably permanently as he's in fixed Aquarius and square his dispositor, Saturn, ruler of the radix Asc, also in a fixed sign.

Mars is in the profected 7th and rules the 10th (reinforcing his radix indications) and 5th (children). He falls in the SR 2nd (reinforcing radix indications) and rules the SR 10th (reinforcing radix indications) and 3rd. SR Mars is trine (2°) the SR MC so the money (2nd) problems will involve her reputation, status. Mars and Uranus are averse in the radix and profection but sextile in the SR (which is their connection in the distribution, sharing management by sextile) pointing to an unexpected, possibly explosive event in the year that will upset the Queen as Uranus is in the SR Asc with some effect on her finances given she is in the radix 2nd which Mars co-rules in the radix and occupies in the SR. Uranus occupies a mutable sign in the radix and a cardinal sign in the SR so he points to a new event (cardinal) that will have a short-term effect (mutable). He occupies the profected 9th (publications) and squares the radix 4th (real estate).

The Moon is active as the profection is in the 7th, Cancer, and she occupies P1. In the radix, she occupies and rules the 7th and opposes Mars (distributor) and Jupiter in the radix 1st, profected 7th and 8th. In the SR she is in the 10th conjunct the 11th and rules the 7th (reinforcing her profected indications). Her main indications are towards domestic (Moon) matters, conflicts (7th, opposition to Mars) and money (opposition to Jupiter, 8th, Mars connections with 2nd). She nearly always indicates change. Her first application is a trine to Venus in the SR 2nd, ruling the 4th (home) in the radix, profection and SR and with Mars in the radix 1st. Her dispositor, the Sun, is in P10 in opposition to 4th. Venus is travelling with (both in the same sign) managing partner Uranus in the radix and the two are square in the SR with Uranus prominent in the SR 1st.

The Moon is averse to Uranus (partner in the distribution) in the radix and the SR; the Queen’s home, Windsor Castle, was partially destroyed by fire on November 21, shortly after Uranus took over as partner in the distribution, the aversion is an indication the fire was an entirely unforeseen event and it greatly impacted her finances (2nd/8th) the Queen was made to foot the bill for the bulk of the repairs. She also began to voluntarily pay income taxes (8th) probably in an effort to restore her standing with the public (Sun in 10th).
And then, just as the profected 7th was nearing its end, in January 1993 the Camilla/Charles phone calls were released by an Australian newspaper (Uranus in P9 with Mercury, ruler of P3 and both the radix and SR 5th while Mars rules P5).

So, all in all, much worse than the events indicated in the previous yearly period. In fact, the worst of the previous period occurred at the beginning of 1992, in the three months before the profected 7th kicked in. And all during a period when malefics hand off to malefics.
The events highlight the need to watch for events that result from a confluence of factors. For example, the Windsor Castle fire highlights the need to pay close attention to the condition of angular planets as well as planets in the same house as the distribution rulers and especially when the planet indications are reinforced across all three charts; as the radix Sun moved into a profected angle, disposited by Venus ruler of the 4th in all three charts and with the distributor Mars in the radix 1st and Uranus partnering in SR 1st in square to SR Venus who he is travelling with (in the same sign with) in the radix.


1993 The distributors remain the same, Mars (in radix 1st ruling 10th and co-ruling 2nd) sharing by sextile with Uranus (in radix 2nd), until April 29, 1994 when Mercury becomes the distributor. In the profection, Mars is in the 6th ruling the 4th and 9th. Uranus is in the 8th. In the SR the pair are opposed across the 3rd/9th axis. The only notable event for the year appears to be the opening of Buckingham Palace (4th) to the public (3rd/9th?) for the first time (Uranus) in order for the Queen to raise money to fund the Windsor Castle repairs.
The profection is in Leo, the 8th (reinforcing emphasis on finances), with the Sun in the 9th (publicity?). The Sun is in the SR 12th (isolation, confinement) and rules the 4th (home, property).

The SR 1st is in Gemini with Mercury in the 11th in opposition to Jupiter ruler of the SR 11th and 7th; profected 5th and 8th. So likely still some problems around her children (Jupiter, Mercury rule radix 5th).
None of Asc ruler positions are particularly strong other than Saturn (radix Asc ruler) in the profected 4th (home) and SR 10th (public, reputation) an indication that is where her primary focus is during the year.

Conclusion
Overall Abu Ma'shar's recommendations appear to work, at least in this example. It is likely the technique would easily have highlighted 1992 as a very difficult year solely from the distributor hand-offs alone. As well, the condition of the planets in the profection and SR, especially when reinforcing radix indications, do appear to mark out areas prone to produce key events during the period so I will certainly need to pay more attention to them in future; to date I've largely ignored solar returns except when examining mundane charts.

And I think I've overdosed enough on Abu Ma'shar for now, even though I’ve yet to really dig into the chapters on timing the months and days. The book is well worth reading, I'm sure I haven't absorbed even a 10th of it, but fair warning, it is heavy going.