Thanks to all for their contributions and condolences!

AJ wrote: Sat May 04, 2024 2:56 pmXXX is signified by the 7th house, ruled by Jupiter.

This I cannot follow because a brother-in-law is not shown by the 7th house. In traditional astrology it’s ruler shows my wife, my known enemies, my business partners or some other people without special relationship to me but not the partner of the sister of my wife. That’s what I have learned…

AJ wrote: Sat May 04, 2024 2:56 pmThe partile square between the Moon and the Sun indicates a no answer.

Only if you take the 7th for the brother-in-law the Sun is the significator of illness. And an aspect between illness and a person’s significator cannot be a sign of death per se. That might look reasonable only now in hindsight but not before at least in my opinion. The square between Venus and Pluto is again a very week sign I think. But of course I might be wrong.

I tend now to say my greatest error was not to follow the restriction –as I would call it now— of Saturn angular in the 7th: The astrologer is wrong in reading this chart.

Ouranos wrote: Sat May 04, 2024 2:46 pmI revisited the article by Deb here... and found some quotes on radical vs turned
https://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary1ea.html

Now I’ve red this text.
Even if I do not turn the chart I can see no death. For example: L1 moves away from L8. All the signs which one could consider seem too weak for me.
Besides look at the fourth paragraph of Deb’s text: She turnes the chart even when asking about the new job of the mother. This is a close relationship and so the querent would be concerned by the matter. Nevertheless the querent has no direct influence. Similar to my question.

Here is the same chart again: I cannot see that the “radical” chart describes the situation as good as the turned chart. Disregarding how I described my reading in the very first posting Jason described the situation very well with turning the chart. But I do agree also his description shows no strong testimonies for dying.

By the way the immediate cause of death was a collapse of blood circulation (signified by Mercury according to Oscar Hofman).

But what’s the use of horary if we cannot answer such an important question properly in advance?!

Georgius wrote: I cannot see that the “radical” chart describes the situation as good as the turned chart. Disregarding how I described my reading in the very first posting Jason described the situation very well with turning the chart. But I do agree also his description shows no strong testimonies for dying.

By the way the immediate cause of death was a collapse of blood circulation (signified by Mercury according to Oscar Hofman).

But what’s the use of horary if we cannot answer such an important question properly in advance?!

I just went and read the original post again and noted that you posed the question as

Georgius wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 6:31 pm
Here the horary asking ”Will XXX survive this crisis?”:

The initial responses that follow your original post are about clarifying how you asked, what specifically you asked. So, right from the start, things get a little hazy in the thread. I'm not sure I took into consideration the specific wording of your actual question, but instead, I just looked for death in the chart. In my post, I said that the Moon's application to Mercury showed "a sudden crisis (at least)" - perhaps this is where I went wrong in delineating the sequence. If we go back to your first post and read the question you wrote out - the word "crisis" is already included. Since a crisis is already implied by the question, seeing the Moon apply to signifiers that amplify (n. node) and further invoke crisis (ruler of 8 in 6; Mercury) - we can probably assume that the situation is likely to worsen, no?

I don't know. I'm just trying to help you get your head around this (and learn from it myself). I think horary is a useful tool, and I know you do, too.

Jason wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 8:56 am…seeing the Moon apply to signifiers that amplify (n. node) and further invoke crisis (ruler of 8 in 6; Mercury) - we can probably assume that the situation is likely to worsen, no?

Yes, that might be seen this way. I usually do not and did not consider aspects to the Nodes only conjunctions, so I did not see an emphasis. I got stuck with the very good and strong significator of the patient. I thought: „Oh, he is very strong, he will survive!“ But this was completely wrong.

Jason wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 8:56 amI don't know. I'm just trying to help you get your head around this (and learn from it myself). I think horary is a useful tool, and I know you do, too.

I respect your precise and well-considered inputs very much! As for horary this chart and my wrong deliniation made me very insecure.

Georgius wrote: I usually do not and did not consider aspects to the Nodes only conjunctions, so I did not see an emphasis.

I didn't understand the nodes for years and tended to avoid using them. Then I had a period where a series of charts kept emphasizing them so I did some further research and reflection. Now I do consider them to be VERY useful. Especially in horary, because the Moon is such a key to unlocking everything.

Georgius wrote: I respect your precise and well-considered inputs very much! As for horary this chart and my wrong deliniation made me very insecure.

Thanks. :)

I can relate to feeling "thrown off" by a wrong delineation.

Recently Deb added some issues of an older print magazine she published back in the 90's to Skyscript. I was flipping through this issue of the Traditional Astrologer yesterday and came across what I think is a great interview with John Frawley on page 41. Love him or hate him, there's no doubt Frawley is a talented astrologer. In the interview, he discusses some specific predictions he made that were completely wrong. He also makes a lot of other really good points, and I don't know about you but I really love his sense of humor and even his brashness. It's definitely worth a read when you have some time.

Just remember that we're all human. We're going to make mistakes. It's part of life. Go easy on yourself.

I cannot see that the “radical” chart describes the situation as good as the turned chart. Disregarding how I described my reading in the very first posting Jason described the situation very well with turning the chart. But I do agree also his description shows no strong testimonies for dying.

You asked a question about someone else so obviously the answer is in the turned chart.
But looking at the radical chart is more related to getting a general feel about the question and your involvement.
So "radical", you are in the waiting room. "Turned", you are in the doctor's office.
You asked a question about death and we find Mars, Saturn and Neptune Angular in the 7th House. It does not sound like a vacation trip! But it seems to describe very well 'How is this death shown?'

But what’s the use of horary if we cannot answer such an important question properly in advance?!

Horary is paved with trials and errors. We cannot be right all the time.
And I have found, at least for me, that horary is easier when we are detached from the scenario. I have been very bad at answering personal questions, my nose is too close to the question (Moon).
And sometimes seeing the planets as actors, you stop here, and you let the actors reveal themselves.
Don't be hard on yourself Georgius. It's OK to say I don't know also. The only way to learn is to make mistakes.
We are all apprentices of this great Art!

Be well,
Ouranos

Thank you, Ouranos!

Georgius wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 10:10 am As for horary this chart and my wrong deliniation made me very insecure.

Hi Georgius.

Please accept my condolences. I am very sorry for your loss.

You might want to take this as an opportunity the cosmos gave you to learn and improve your skills as an astrologer, even if it involved sorrow and pain (Saturn, the great teacher, in the 7th).

Georgius wrote: Sat May 04, 2024 6:55 pm Thanks to all for their contributions and condolences!

AJ wrote: Sat May 04, 2024 2:56 pmXXX is signified by the 7th house, ruled by Jupiter.

This I cannot follow because a brother-in-law is not shown by the 7th house. In traditional astrology it’s ruler shows my wife, my known enemies, my business partners or some other people without special relationship to me but not the partner of the sister of my wife. That’s what I have learned…

Georgius: There are differing perspectives among astrologers regarding how to approach this.

Some argue that if the relationship between the querent and the individual in question is known, the question should be placed in the relevant relationship house.

My position is this: whenever you ask a question about another person, that person becomes the 7th house, unless you designate a relationship. You see it really boils down to the question.

Using a different example for clarity. When a question pertains to or is posed on behalf of a specific named individual, that person is represented by the 7th house. For instance, "Should Bob seek employment in another state?" In such cases, Bob may be placed in the 7th house. Despite knowing that Bob is the querent’s brother, I choose to assign him to the 7th house when a name is mentioned in the direct question rather than the 3rd house of younger siblings.

If the question were put, Is my elder brother’s health going to suffer? The brother or individual here is identified through a familial or relational connection; their representation in the chart is determined by the house associated with that relationship. This is where you would turn the wheel of the chart and treat the third house as the ascendant and look to the radical 8th house as being sixth from the third for the elder brother's health.

Only if you take the 7th for the brother-in-law the Sun is the significator of illness. And an aspect between illness and a person’s significator cannot be a sign of death per se.

Going by what you said was your original question, "Will XXX survive this crisis?"
The question is everything in horary. You did not specify a familial or relational connection, at least in the question presented in your post. Correctly assigning the question to the appropriate house is crucial in Prasna astrology. This ensures the validity of the judgement. With the background you mentioned, the query was about sickness and health, the crisis, and if they would survive it, which is why the significator is the 6th turned house from the 7th radical house. There is also negative testimony from the 8th as well. The turned 8th lord Venus is exactly square to Pluto and occupied by the South Node.

I tend now to say my greatest error was not to follow the restriction –as I would call it now— of Saturn angular in the 7th: The astrologer is wrong in reading this chart.

If Saturn occupies the 7th house in the chart, it does not preclude judgment, in my experience. Though it's prudent to double-check your calculations and evaluation of the question. This ancient guideline does hold relevance today, as errors in data entry or flawed judgment by the astrologer can lead to inaccuracies in the answer provided, but it is more of a cautionary flag to double check everything. It can provide a means to cop out if the chart is not forthcoming with an answer.
.
You were the one who asked why the chart wasn't working, and I responded with my approach or system to Horary.

Each to his own, but I stand by this systematic approach, which has worked for me for a very long time.

But what other direct method shows a negative outcome without a lot of reverse engineering?

Again, sorry for your loss.

Jason wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 10:32 amLove him or hate him, there's no doubt Frawley is a talented astrologer.

Today I just red “Why it Goes Wrong” in his book “The real astrology applied”.

Jason wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 10:32 amJust remember that we're all human. We're going to make mistakes. It's part of life. Go easy on yourself.

That’s not that easy for me.
I always want to get it right.

AJ wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 12:12 pm,…I responded with my approach or system to Horary.

Thank you for your input and this detailed clarification!

AquaStelLea wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 10:53 am You might want to take this as an opportunity the cosmos gave you to learn and improve your skills as an astrologer, even if it involved sorrow and pain (Saturn, the great teacher, in the 7th).

It’s easy to learn something if the mistake is obvious in hindsight. But in this case I only can collect the different approaches and hints and follow the various thoughts. There is no clear mistake or missed rule apart from the Saturn-in-7th-consideration which William Lilly did not follow all the time too.