Oh, and choleric types are ambitious, strongly authoritative, headstrong, impatient, take-charge people who get things done. They also expect astrologers to give them free readings for life

Are they also witty, funny, intelligent and vivacious?

Are they also witty, funny, intelligent and vivacious?

Only when they are imitating a sanguine type

Pete

Only when they are imitating a sanguine type

OKaaaay... I'll let you have the last word......
Gawd, you're more choleric than me!!!


- T7 -

...my great grandmother was from Birkenhead, my great grandfather from just north of there.

I actually live in Birkenhead, Sue, right by the park.

Thanks for posting the horary Pete. It isn't all that often that we get to look at a completed horary with a known outcome. It is a wonderful learning tool.

You're welcome. I think we should post a few more missing items horaries with known outcomes, if only to see if any kind of pattern begins to reveal itself with regard to directional symbolism, timing, signification, etc. I think we all agree that this type of horary can be a real challenge to the astrologer, so the more known outcome horaries we can look at, the better, imo.

I'm quite interested to learn more at some stage about the use of directional symbolism in astrology as it relates to missing objects, people, etc. I have been working on orientation and the differences between Babylonians, Greeks, Etruscans and Romans. I haven't got as far as astrology yet but I would want to question why it doesn't seem to be a strong tool for missing objects. As Deb pointed out, sometimes it is hard to know exactly what the symbolism is referring to. It could be the object itself or it could be the direction.

Or of course, it could be both. Lilly seems to be quite sure of his ground (no pun intended) with regard to directional symbolism. In his "Fugitive Servant" and "Missing Dog" horaries (C.A. ps 390; 392) he confidently describes the whereabouts of both, using the directional and locational symbolism he supplies on page 204. The question is, what is the source of this symbolism? He states on page 203 that he "laboured to find a more certain manner, and a more exact way for the ready discovery or finding out anything mislaid or missing, in a house, and not stolen" (my emphasis). He states "....in a house...", yet presumably he intends these instructions to be expandable beyond the walls of a house and extend to the world outside, since he uses the same symbolism to describe the whereabouts of the missing servant and dog.

I know Lilly used it but don't know about the prior history too much.

Nor me. It would be interesting if anyone can enlighten us.

Pete

OKaaaay... I'll let you have the last word......
Gawd, you're more choleric than me!!!

Not quite, you have me beat by at least 30%

Pete

I'm not sure Lilly was sure of his ground; he probably talks about labouring to find a more certain manner because the directions were given by earlier sources but with some discrepancies. As far as I can tell, all authors agree upon the relationship between the houses and the points of the compass. These are easy to recall since the four cardinal directions align with the angular houses in the same way that they demonstrate celestial alignment for chartrs drawn in northern hemispheres; ie, -

Ascendant / 1st house = East
MC / 10th house = South
Descendant / 7th house= West
IC / 4th house = North

The 7th house therefore relates to the west, the 10th house South, and the 8th and 9th houses take up intermediate direction between these two points: - the 8th house tending more towards the west but inclining south, and the 9th house tending more towards the south but inclining west.

When we align the cardinal signs with the cardinal points we see how they relate to the same scheme, so these are easy to remember in terms of the 'natural zodiac'.

Aries = East
Capricorn = South
Libra = West
Cancer = North

All of the fire signs relate to the east. Aries is the cardinal fire sign and relates to the cardinal direction east (Albiruni says it denotes the 'middle of east'). The same with the other triplicities:

Aries Fire East - Leo and Sagittarius are eastern but veer from the centre of it
Capricorn Earth South - Taurus and Virgo are southern but veer from the centre of it
Libra Air West - Gemini and Aquarius are western but veer from the centre of it
Cancer Water North - Scorpio and Pisces are northern but veer from the centre of it

On pages 364-365 of Christian Astrology Lilly gives two lists relating the signs to directions. Astrologers have agreed upon the allocation of triplicities to the directions in the manner of fire - East / water - North / air -West / earth - South; but as we see from these two lists there has been a difference of opinion regarding emphasis. For example, Lilly tells us that some authorities claim that Leo is principally eastern but veering to the north; others that the sign is principally northern, tending towards the east. One explanation of why Leo should be northern is that in the zodiac it lies next to Cancer which governs the northern angle. This explanation would suit Albiruni's scheme but it is not consistent throughout the signs and in fact Albiruni (Elements of Astrology, v. 357), gives yet another table of sign-direction correspondences which differs in its details from both of Lilly's list. (For example Albiruni's list considers Scorpio a north-western sign whereas in both of Lilly's lists it denotes north-east).

Lilly obviously finds it difficult to fully reconcile the differences he has seen in the works of earlier authors, so his advice is "let everyone use what he finds most true". Because there can be an overload of information, I tend to put the main emphasis on the triplicity and the house involved.

you know there have been a few, completed horaries on this list, I wonder does anyone keep them? might be nice to collect in a reference folder? for the sight? Just a thought, Deb?

Granny

Of course, the use of orientation in all sorts of divination is a very old one. Most cultures began with the four cardinal points and Deb has pointed out. But I would like to know how and when it began to be applied to astrology in this way. I was reading Pliny?s ?Natural History? yesterday and he was explaining the directional points of the four winds. The ancients were very big on this winds business and, even until the Renaissance period, you can see little cherub like features on maps at the cardinal points. But one thing I found interesting in what Pliny was saying is that originally there were four winds at the cardinal points. At some point this figure became eight and then futher on the eight became added to the four and it became twelve. However, says Pliny, they found this too cumbersome and reduced it back down to eight. I haven?t followed any of this up yet so I am not sure what to make of it. Orientation for divination was very common in most cultures but most used the four cardinal points. Interestingly, the Etruscans divided the templum area into sixteen parts. They were the only group of people ever to do so and they mostly confined it to the flight of birds. But all sorts of things were divined by directional clues including lightning flashes, thunder and birds. It is not surprising that orientation for lost objects came about.

But I would like to know how and when it began to be applied to astrology in this way.

The most ancient astrological texts include references to divination by orientation, and with the Mesopotamians there is a heavy emphasis upon the influence of the winds, which is what you see the remnants of in Classical astrology. The title of the astrological texts known as the Enuma Anu Enlil tablets is usually translated as ?When the gods of Heaven and Earth?, but a more correct translation is ?When the gods of Heaven and the winds? because Enlil was an air god who ruled the winds that moved the earth. Within this ?astrological? collection there are a great deal of omens relating to the directions of the winds (also whether the wind was strong/gentle, changing direction etc), and of course a lot of astrological reasoning based on the direction of planetary movement, obscuration etc.

Yes. This is basically what I said in my previous post. The winds have always been of primary importance. According to Pliny, the twelve fold direction was used for awhile and then disbanded only to appear again some time later.

Pliny:The ancients noticed four winds in all corresponding to the four quarters of the world (this is the reason why even Homer mentions no more) - a dull witted system as it was soon after considered. In the following age they added eight [making 12] which was too subtle and meticulous. Their successors compromised on eight. Consequently two winds in each of the four quarters.

I took notice of this particular passage and wondered about the possible connection between the use of eight and then twelve houses in astrology.

Omens were used for directions of the winds prior to the horoscope but were eventually incorporated into astrology. I know that this is a very ancient practice. However, what I would like to know is when did this transfer to the use of directions for finding lost objects and did it relate in any way to the use of liver divination. The Etruscans did not appear to practise astrology but they were known for their liver divination. As I said previously, the Etruscans were the only ones to use the 16 fold division for divination and they did so for liver divination. Orientation of the 16 sections was quite important. They were also different from the Mesopotamians in that the left side was east and considered the side of the querent and the right side was the west and the side of the enemy, much like an astrology chart. Jack Lindsay has a lot of good information on this in his 'Origin of Astrology."

But, as I said, I'd like to know the path from this use of orientation to that used by Lilly for finding lost objects.

You guys are pretty funny. With a sun and moon in Cancer and an asc. in Virgo, what am I? (Please, be polite).

I want to point out that your wastepaper basket should be represented by Pluto, right? Or did someone already say that?

Deb was Enlil the equivelent of Mercury?

Granny