Hi Deb,

Here is the argument of the Anonymous writer (cited by Agostino Nifo in his commentary to Ptolemy?s Tetrabiblos) for the order of terms in Aries:

1.take in consideration ARIES; here Mars is in domicile and Jupiter rules by triplicities being also the benefic one. Triplicity comes before domicile (it is the argument of the Anonymous writer so don?t ask me way).
Conclusion Jupiter gets the first bound
2.take in consideration Taurus; here Venus is in domicile, and also a triplicity ruler
Conclusion Venus gets the second bound
3.take in consideration Gemini; here Mercury is in domicile and triplicity ruler
so takes the third place
4.after taking in consideration the three signs, return to the first one, Aries.; here we take Mars in consideration because is the domicile lord.
5.Saturn takes the last place.

general criteria for the order of terms are:
1. the planet that has two rights in the trizodia (the first three signs, in the case of Aries: Aries, Taurus, Gemini) takes the first place.
2. the benefic planet comes first, preceding the malefic one;
3. the hierarchical order: exaltation, triplicity, domicile

The author of the article (G. Bezza) mentions that there are some exceptions to the above criteria, in the case of Cancer and Leo.

G. Bezza says that the above argumentation comes from an anonymous Greek commentary on Ptolemy mentioned by Nifo Agostino in his commentary on Tetrabiblos

Hi Sasha

This looks very useful. At a quick glance, it seems to be the first approach I was trying to take, but it fell apart at Cancer so I didn?t go any further with it. (I was just pulling my hair out!). I?m short of time today but when I get chance I?ll check how it works with all the signs apart from Cancer and Leo, to make sure I understand it properly.

Thank you - I'll get back to you later with my findings on how well this seems to work.
Deb

The anonymous commentary was a big help ? at least I think it has been, but there is still a problem: it creates a system that is internally consistent but for one exception! This is the order of the terms in Aquarius ? but then I can?t see any other logic that justifies the order of the terms in Aquarius and I?m starting to wonder if they have been recorded wrongly.

My understanding of Ptolemy?s text before reading that extract was this: after having obtained the first ruler for each term, you then use the most dignified planet in the next sign as the subsequent term ruler for the sign you are working on. (Hence Venus which is the first ruler for Taurus is the 2nd ruler for Aries, and Mercury which is the first ruler for Gemini is the 3rd ruler for Aries).

I needed some confirmation on this, which that text gave ? and also this text made it much clearer that you only consider the next two signs, with the last two terms being allocated to the remaining planets based upon their claim to dignity within that sign. Ptolemy does not say this outright, although I can now see that it is intimated in the instruction he gives on the designated number of the terms, where he says we are considering the strength of the planets within the particular sign and the following signs of its quadrant.

For anyone else who has found the instruction as unclear as I have, I?ll demonstrate the whole scheme, which will show the problem we have with Aquarius. Of course I am hoping that any flaws in the logic will be pointed out to me, although it seems fairly robust apart from the Aquarius problem. Similarly, if anyone knows of another interpretation to the instruction that accounts for the Aquarius order, I would love to be corrected or informed. (To view the Table of Essential Dignities as you read through what I have below, click this link www.skyscript.co.uk/essential_dignities.html )

To begin with, we have to determine the first term ruler for each sign. I explained how this is worked out in my previous post so I won?t repeat that here. It results in the planets that we are familiar with in our table:

Aries: Jupiter
Taurus: Venus
Gemini: Mercury
Cancer: Mars
Leo: Saturn
Virgo: Mercury
Libra: Saturn
Scorpio: Mars
Sagittarius: Jupiter
Capricorn: Venus
Aquarius: Saturn
Pisces: Venus

As mentioned in my previous post, the dignities considered are exaltation, triplicity and sign ? in that order of preference ? so, for example, a planet in its sign of exaltation will be given priority over one in its sign of rulership.

The formula is to establish the first rulers (as I did earlier), then the second set of terms are given to the planet that is the best dignified planet in the next sign (usually the first term ruler for that sign), and the third set are given to the planet that is the best dignified planet in the sign after that. As I said, this is usually the first term ruler, unless it is a malefic - because if malefics don't come first, they must come last.

So unless a malefic planet has been determined as the first ruler - either for Cancer or Leo to replace the luminaries, or for Libra or Scorpio because it has more than one of the considered dignities (as explained above) ? it will always take either the 4th or 5th place. The natural order is that Saturn gets the 4th place and Mars gets the 5th (last) place. This contradicts the suggestion that the natural order places the greater benefic at the start of the sign and the greater malefic at the end ? the reasoning appears to be that Saturn, being a more superior planet than Mars, has a greater strength, and so precedes it in dignity. The detail of each sign that I?ve given below should make this clearer:


Aries ? Jupiter is the first ruler as already determined in the previous post. The second place is given to Venus which has most strength in Taurus. Third place is given to Mercury which has most strength in Gemini. That would naturally leave Saturn and then Mars, but this order is subject to alteration if one of the malefics has more dignity in Aries than the other ? which Mars does because it rules the sign, so Mars takes the 4th place leaving Saturn with the last. Ie:
Jupiter ? Venus ? Mercury ? Mars ? Saturn.

Taurus ? Venus is the first ruler as already determined. The second place is given to Mercury which has most strength in Gemini. Third place is given to Jupiter which has the best dignity in Cancer because it is exalted. Neither Saturn nor Mars hold one of the recognised dignities in Taurus so they follow the natural order of Saturn taking the 4th place and Mars taking the last. Ie:
Venus ? Mercury ? Jupiter ? Saturn ? Mars.

Gemini ? Mercury is the first ruler as already determined. The second place is given to Jupiter which has most strength in Cancer. Neither Venus, Saturn nor Mars hold any of the recognised dignities in Gemini but the principle is always to put the malefics at the end of the sign so Venus, as the benefic planet, takes the third place, followed by the natural order of Saturn (4th) and Mars (5th). Ie:
Mercury ? Jupiter ? Venus - Saturn ? Mars.

Cancer ? Although Jupiter has the greatest dignity, the first place is given to Mars for the reasons covered in my earlier post. The second place is given to Jupiter which is the only planet of the five to hold one of the recognised dignities in Leo (rules the triplicity). Third place is given to Mercury which has most strength in Virgo. This leaves Venus and Saturn, of which Venus takes precedence over the malefic. Ie:
Mars ? Jupiter ? Mercury - Venus - Saturn.

Leo ? Although Jupiter has the greatest dignity, the first place is given to Saturn for the reasons covered in my earlier post. The second place is given to Mercury which has most strength in Virgo. Third place is given to Venus rather than Jupiter because Venus has dignity in Libra by sign. This leaves Jupiter and Mars, of which Jupiter takes precedence over the malefic. Ie:
Saturn ? Mercury - Venus ? Jupiter - Mars.

Virgo ? Mercury is the first ruler as already determined. The second place is given to Venus which has most strength in Libra (Saturn is discounted as a malefic: the principle being that unless the malefics take the first rulership, they must be placed at the end). Third place is given to Jupiter which has no dignity in Scorpio but is preferred over the malefics. Neither Mars nor Saturn have dignity in Virgo so they follow the natural order of Saturn (4th) then Mars (5th). Ie:
Mercury - Venus ? Jupiter ? Saturn - Mars.

Libra ? Saturn is the first ruler as already determined (because it has two dignities). The second place is given to Venus which is the only qualifying planet to have dignity in Scorpio (by triplicity). Third place is given to Jupiter which has the most dignity in Sagittarius. This leaves Mercury and Mars. Mercury has some dignity in Libra by triplicity and Mars is a malefic anyway, so Mercury takes the 4th place and Mars takes the last. Ie:
Saturn ? Venus ? Jupiter ? Mercury - Mars.

Scorpio ? Mars is the first ruler as already determined (because it has two dignities). The second place is given to Jupiter which has the most dignity in Sagittarius. The third place is given to Venus which (as triplicity ruler) is better dignified in Capricorn than Mercury. Mercury then takes the 4th place in preference over the malefic and Saturn takes the last. Ie:
Mars ? Jupiter ? Venus - Mercury ? Saturn.

Sagittarius ? Jupiter is the first ruler as already determined. The second place is given to Venus which has most strength in Capricorn. Mercury, which has dignity by triplicity in Aquarius, takes the third place. Neither Saturn nor Mars have dignity in Sagittarius so they follow the natural order of Saturn (4th) then Mars (5th). Ie:
Jupiter ? Venus - Mercury ? Saturn - Mars.

Capricorn ? Venus is the first ruler as already determined. The second place is given to Mercury which has dignity in Aquarius by triplicity. The third place is given to Jupiter which has dignity in Pisces by sign. The natural order for Saturn and Mars at the end of the sign is reversed in this instance because although Saturn governs the sign, Mars has the stronger claim by exaltation, so Mars takes the 4th place and Saturn takes the last. Ie:
Venus - Mercury ? Jupiter ? Mars - Saturn.

Aquarius ? see below.

Pisces - Venus is the first ruler as already determined. The second place is given to Jupiter which has most strength in Aries. The third place is given to Mercury which has no dignity in Taurus but which is preferred over the malefics. Saturn would naturally take the 4th place and Mars the last, but since Mars has dignity in Pisces by triplicity this order is reversed and Mars is placed before Saturn. Ie:
Venus ? Jupiter ? Mercury ? Mars - Saturn.

So all the signs work out except for Aquarius. If the reasoning was fully consistent Aquarius should run as follows:

Aquarius - Saturn takes the first place because it rules two of the dignities considered: triplicity and sign (as explained in previous post). This would be followed by the planet that has the best dignity in Pisces, which is undeniably Venus, since Venus is exalted in Pisces and rules the triplicity by day. Then Jupiter would take third place as the triplicity ruler of Aries. This leaves Mercury and Mars, from which Mars would be placed last as the malefic. Ie:
Saturn - Venus ? Jupiter ? Mercury ? Mars

But what we have in the table is:
Saturn ? Mercury ? Venus ? Jupiter ? Mars

I can?t see the reasoning for this, and in every way that I tried to interpret Ptolemy?s words earlier, there was no approach that would explain the Aquarian order which wasn?t obviously disproved by the order of the other signs. Does anyone else have an argument for that?

Incidentally, the order: Mercury ? Venus ? Jupiter, which follows Saturn in ?Ptolemy?s table? is the order by which the Aquarian terms commence in the Egyptian set of terms, so could this be explained by a lacuna in Ptolemy?s crumbling document, which was filled in by reference to another well known set? The Egyptian terms for Aquarius read: Mercury ? Venus ? Jupiter ? Mars ? Saturn.

This bothers me, because the proclaimed strength of the alternative system is that the reasoning behind it is consistent ? hence by knowing the rules any astrologer should be able to recreate it, and for the most part that appears to be the case. With the exception of Aquarius, it would be possible for any astrologer with knowledge of the exaltations, triplicity and sign rulers, to sit down as I did and calculate the order of the terms without the need to refer to any other tables. And Ptolemy states that it is consistent in its reasoning, so that is what it ought to be.

BTW, I appreciate having that section of the Italian text translated. Can anyone tell me if the anonymous commentary of the Apotelesmatics has been dated?

Deb

Deb,

Thanks for your detailed explanation. I've read it over several times and cannot see the flaw in your logic regarding Aquarius. This prompted me to re-read Ptolemy. He found the Egyptian terms "defective" in their order and "irregular" in their allotment of degrees to each of the terms.

Ptolemy's newfound "ancient manuscript" provided a "rational and consistent account of the nature of the terms" and their order and quantity. Specifically, as you already mentioned, the lord of the exaltation comes first, then the lord of the triplicity, and then the lord of the domicile (house). If a planet has two honors in a sign, however, it comes first, even before the sequence exaltation-triplicity-domicile. Malefics come last unless they have two honors in a sign (in which case they come first); but in Cancer and Leo, signs of the Lights, the malefics come first -- Mars in Cancer and Saturn in Leo because the "malefics have greater potency in the houses of the luminaries."

Applying Ptolemy's rationale to Aquarius, we see that Saturn rules the sign and the triplicity (with Mercury). Hence Saturn comes first and Mercury second. (No planet is exalted in Aquarius, so Saturn with 2 honors comes first and Mercury the triplicity ruler comes next.) Mars the malefic goes last. This leaves Venus and Jupiter. Looking to the next sign, Pisces, we see that Venus is exalted and Jupiter is lord of the house. Since the order is exaltation, then triplicity, then house, Venus will come before Jupiter. Hence, the terms in Aquarius should have the order:
Saturn (with 2 dignites) - (No exalted planet in Aquarisu) - Mercury (triplicity ruler) - Venus (exalted in the next sign) - Jupiter (house ruler of the next sign) - Mars (a malefic without dignities in Aquarius).

If I am understanding Ptolemy correctly, this sequence explains how he arrived at his table of terms for Aquarius.

Tony

Hi Tony,

It?s good to have your input. Can I first check that I undersand what you are saying correctly, and then perhaps ask for your opinion on whether you think this does resolve the problem, considering how it impacts upon the reasoning for the rest of the scheme?

Earlier I wrote:

The formula is to establish the first rulers (as I did earlier), then the second set of terms are given to the planet that is the best dignified planet in the next sign (usually the first term ruler for that sign), and the third set are given to the planet that is the best dignified planet in the sign after that.

So my assumption is, or was, (please bear in mind that I feel somewhere between half-knowing what I?m doing and purely guessing ), that we only take the most dignified planet from the first sign, and then automatically go to the following sign for the second term ruler and so on ? this seems to work with the exception of Aquarius as I?ve shown.

You seem to be suggesting that we don?t move onto the next sign until we have exhausted the planets with dignity in the first ? or at least we can add in an extra set of terms where one of the planets has a dual rulership and there remains another with dignity there. I hope I?ve summarised that correctly.

But then that would contradict the order of the rulerships in other signs wouldn?t it?

For example Libra has very similar conditions to Aquarius: Saturn is given the first place in Libra because it has dual rulership over exaltation and triplicity, just as in Aquarius it has dual rulership over triplicity and sign. If we include this dual rulership in Aquarius as an ?extra?, allowing us to also include Mercury as the other triplicity ruler, then why doesn?t that logic apply in Libra as well, since Mercury is a triplicity ruler there and according to the ?rules? triplicity rulership supersedes sign rulership? But Mercury is not recognised as having strength in Libra, and only takes the 4th place.

The same applies for Scorpio. Mars has dual rulership over sign and triplicity, so if we allow this to be an extra inclusion, wouldn?t we expect the second rulership to go to Venus, which also has rulership over the water triplicity? (From what I understand of this table, it is allowing the two principle rulers of each triplicity by day or night, and the more ancient sources that this ?ancient? manuscript would have used, recognised Venus as the main ruler by day). We might argue this point if Mars alone is being used as the ruler of the water triplicity ? which I think is unlikely ? but that still doesn?t explain why the Libran dignities are compiled differently to the Aquarian dignities when such similar conditions exist.

So I?m left thinking that your suggestion might offer a solution for Aquarius but at worst it causes bigger problems or at best it only shifts the inconsistency problem onto another sign. Unless you can now close that gap of course

BTW, I received Maurice McCann?s book ?The Sun and the Aspects? this morning, and that does contain a fully demonstrated account of the reasoning behind term rulerships. It is the most detailed attempt at an explanation that I?ve seen published and I wish I?d had this to refer to last week as I might have saved myself a lot of hair pulling! It takes a similar approach to that which I?ve already explained, but it?s not exactly the same, and Maurice presents the same argument for the Aquarian rulerships as you have done. It?s a great book to refer to and compare thoughts with, even though there are some inconsistencies (or as Maurice might say "creative juggling") so I?m hoping Maurice won?t mind if I detail the differences in his argument in a separate post.

Maurice informs me that he has no objection to me illustrating his arguments, or pulling at them where I think they are a little loose. Considering the sources he had and that he was working in isolation with this at a time when no one else was offering any suggestion, I think it?s amazing that he got where he did.

This is my summary of his explanation which focuses mainly on the places where he differs from the suggested reasoning that I made earlier. Maurice has some extra information about the rationale behind the numbers of the terms, but there are quite a few assumptions of mistakes, so I would rather leave that as a separate issue to be looked at later, at which point I expect that, at the very least, Maurice will be pointing in the right direction.

1) Cancer:
Maurice argues that Jupiter rules the second set of terms in Cancer because it has dignity by exaltation in Cancer, whereas I suggested that Jupiter ruled the second set of terms because it had the most dignity in the subsequent sign: Leo.
So here Maurice is seeing the inclusion of Mars as the first ruler of Cancer as an ?extra?, which is followed by the first planet with dignity in the sign under consideration. But that means that Leo is then ?skipped?, because the next rulership goes to Mercury - because it ?has two prerogatives in Virgo?.
Mercury is followed by Venus which, as a benefic, takes precedence over Saturn, which comes last (to which I agree).

2) Leo:
Maurice doesn?t apply the same process in Leo however. If he had, he would have had to view Saturn as an extra and give the second place to Jupiter as the only qualifying planet to have dignity in Leo (by triplicity) ? which the table doesn?t show. Instead he offers the same rationale for the order of the terms in Leo that I have done: that Saturn is not an ?extra? but the only planet initially taken from Leo, with the second place going to Mercury as the most dignified planet in the following sign (Virgo), and the third place going to Venus which has dignity in the sign after that (Libra). I obviously agree with him here, but would suggest that this makes what he has done in Cancer an unnecessary inconsistency.

3) Libra:
Maurice doesn?t consider Venus as a qualifying ruler of the water triplicity, so he only presents Mars as an option for triplicity rulership in Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces. Apologies for the lengthy diversion that follows, but I think it is necessary to detail the triplicity rulers that are being considered (and why), because that subject alone can influence a lot of the logic in the scheme.

My interest in this matter originally started as a way to see how the ?Dorothean? triplicity rulers compared against the Ptolemaic triplicity rulers in the way they were incorporated in this scheme, and I went through several options to see whether two or three triplicity rulers were recognised, and whether there was a modification for triplicity rulers that are in or out of sect. I?m still working on this issue, but my current belief is:

a) There is no modification of dignity for triplicity rulers that are out of set; at least not so far as the order of dignity is derived, although this might have some impact upon the way that planets gain or lose degrees of rulership from or to other planets ? for example, Jupiter is accepted as the only qualifying planet with dignity in Aries because it rules the fire triplicity by night. Aries is a diurnal sign but it does not matter that Jupiter is the main ruler of the fire triplicity by night. However this might help to explain why Jupiter is chosen to lose one of its degrees of rulership to a planet that has a stronger claim to dignity in another sign, whereas in other places Jupiter keeps its degrees and Saturn loses more than one or Mars loses degrees instead.

b) There is no recognition for the third triplicity ruler under the Dorothean scheme. For example, Dorotheus claims that the rulers of the air triplicity (although he doesn?t use the term ?air? and calls it the ?Gemini, Libra, Aquarius? triplicity?) are ?by day Saturn, then Mercury, then Jupiter; by night Mercury, then Saturn then Jupiter?. But there is no recognition of dignity for Jupiter in Libra ? if there were the third set of terms in Leo would be given to Jupiter rather than Venus, because Jupiter as a triplicity ruler would be more dignified than Venus the sign ruler. The same principle would apply to the second set of terms in Virgo.

Another indication is that Dorotheus also includes Mars as the third ruler for the earth triplicity, but if this were considered then Mars would be allowed to have more dignity in Taurus and Virgo than Saturn (which has no dignity in those signs), so Mars would be moved before Saturn to take 4th place in these signs as it does in Aries. There is no place in the scheme where re-ordering takes place to allow for the third triplicity ruler, so it seems safe to discount its influence.

c) Valens, along with most ancient authors, recorded the same scheme as Dorotheus, but gave a subtle shift of emphasis in saying that one planet is master by day, another is master by night, and there is a third planet that co-operatives in both. As I have just said, it seems to be only the two planets that take principle rulership by day or night that are being recognised in the rulership of the terms. Generally these are the two triplicity rulers as recorded in Lilly?s ?Table of Essential Dignities according to Ptolemy?, but according to the majority of opinion amongst ancient authors, Mars is only the main ruler of the water triplicity by night, and Venus is the main ruler by day. Since Ptolemy is so isolated in his opinion that Mars is the main ruler by day and night, it seems most reasonable to assume that the ancient document Ptolemy referred to wasn?t following Ptolemy?s thinking on this, but adhered to the majority opinion, which leaves the qualifying triplicity rulers as:

Fire triplicity: Sun (D) & Jupiter (N) ? Sun is disqualified leaving Jupiter only.
Earth triplicity: Venus (D) & Moon (N) ? Moon is disqualified leaving Venus only.
Air triplicity: Saturn (D) & Mercury (N)
Water triplicity: Venus (D) & Mars (N)

I see the inclusion of Venus as a ruler of the water triplicity supported by the fact that the second set of terms in Libra are given to Venus, which is the only qualifying planet to hold dignity in the subsequent sign: Scorpio, but Maurice makes a different argument here. He sees the dual rulership of Saturn over the exaltation and triplicity of Libra as the reason why it takes first place (agreed), but then Venus takes the second place because of its sign rulership of Libra. Then he skips Scorpio and gives the 3rd rulership to Jupiter for having the greatest strength in Sagittarius, ? and then we are both in agreement as to why Mercury comes 4th and Saturn comes last.

Here I think there is another inconsistency, because if we are going to include two of the planets with dignity from Libra, then why is Venus the 2nd ruler and not Mercury which is the other triplicity ruler? The text is quite clear in specifying that triplicity rulership takes dominance over sign rulership.

4) Aquarius:
Maurice presents the same argument as Tony made earlier.

5) Pisces:
The reason for taking Venus first is clear and we both agree on that. But I proposed that Jupiter takes 2nd place because it has the most dignity in the following sign (Aries) whereas Maurice suggests it is because Jupiter is also dignified in Pisces.

---

I hope that?s a fair representation of your argument Maurice. I?m currently feeling very bemused and frustrated at the way there is either a fault in the table or a need to be very creative and inconsistent to make sense of it! As I?ve moaned before, the only reason this table has been given the coverage it has is because it is supposed to contain ?a natural and consistent explanation of their order and number?, although to be fair Ptolemy did say ?its damaged state made it hard to read, so that I could barely gain an idea of its general purport?.

But without this sense of order, I find it difficult to justify why this table should get more credence than the Egyptian set of terms, especially since Neugebauer and Van Hoesen point out that of all the charts published in their Greek Horoscopes all but one seem to only use the Egyptian system of terms, and that exception doesn?t use the Ptolemaic terms instead of, but as well as.

I probably need to stand back a little now, otherwise I?m in danger of getting too close to my own presumptions and not seeing the wood for the trees.

Good job Deborah!

It's a pleasure to follow your thinking process.

Deb,

Thanks for presenting Maurice's arguments (I'll have to order his book). It will take me a little time to go through them. Ptolemy is a bit unclear on exactly what he was doing. This is a fascinating exercise and I'm learning a lot by going through it. I wonder if there is a pattern to the Egyptian terms that we're not yet seeing.

Best wishes,

Tony

I read a bit more of Maurice?s book last night and I really recommend it ? not just for what he covers in this topic, but for his exploration of a number of techniques.

I can?t help thinking myself that if we understand more about the principles that are dictating one table of terms, it will help to understand the kind of thinking that is built into the others. For example, it has to be more than coincidence that the two sets of terms that are outstanding in the Egyptian system for their 12 degree length are where the benefics hold dual rulership by either exaltation and triplicity or sign rulership and triplicity. But the discrepancies in the records hardly help, so I don?t know if there will ever be an answer.

At the moment we seem to have two ways to explain the creation of the Ptolemaic terms. One seems systematic and allows the table to be rebuilt from stated principles ? albeit from the instruction of an anonymous author - with the exception of one sign. The other appears less methodical, and it currently seems that it is only by jiggling the logic around that we can explain the table. Since the principles don?t appear to be systematic, I doubt that anyone could ever recreate that table without already having it in front of them!

Then again, there could be something else entirely that I?m failing to see. Robert Schmidt says in the introduction to his translation of the Tetrabiblos:

?By a very careful translation of Ptolemy?s own description of his table, we were able to show the complete agreement of the Teubner text with Ptolemy?s stated principles of assignment.?

That?s quite a statement - so perhaps he has seen the answer, but he doesn?t reveal it clearly by demonstrating it in the manner that Maurice does. No matter how many times I read Schmidt?s text I can?t see how the order of the arrangement in Aquarius makes sense. But he obviously seems to think it does because he makes some reference to it in a footnote.

This is how Robbins and Schmidt have each translated the passage on how to make the arrangement. Perhaps someone else is able to understand Schmidt?s reference to Aquarius in his footnote 4 better than I am?

Robbins:
?For their arrangement within each sign, the exaltations, triplicities, and houses are taken into consideration. For, generally speaking, the star that has two rulerships of this sort in the same sign is placed first, even though it may be maleficent. But wherever this condition does not exist, the maleficent planets are always put last, and the lords of the exaltation first, the lords of the triplicity next, and then those of the house, following the order of the signs. And again in order, those that have two lordships each are preferred to the one which has but one in the same sign. Since terms are not allotted to the luminaries, however, Cancer and Leo, the houses of the sun and moon, are assigned to the maleficent planets because they were deprived of their share in the order, Cancer to Mars and Leo to Saturn; in these the order appropriate to them is preserved.?

(Harvard University Press, 1940; pp.103-5)

----------

Schmidt:
?As for the order according to each twelfth-part, the exaltation and the trigons and the houses are employed. For, in general, the star having two of these rulerships is placed in the front rank in the same Zoidon, even if it should be malefic. But wherever this does not obtain, the malefics are always placed last, the rulers of the exaltation first, then the rulers of the trigon, then the rulers of the house. Then for the next [boundary rulers], analogously [do the same] in the next zoidon in order,(3) again with those having two rulerships upward in the next [zoidon] being placed ahead of one having a single rulership in the same zoidon.(4) Nevertheless, since no boundaries are given to the lights, Cancer and Leo, which are houses of the Sun and Moon, are apportioned to the malefics because of being disadvantaged in the order. Cancer was apportioned to the star of Ares, but Leo to the star of Kronos, in which the order proper to them is preserved.

3) This phrase and the next one are the keys to understanding how to establish the order of the boundaries after the first, and they have both been mistranslated by Robbins, who does not give enough information in his translation to make the order determinant. This phrase simply says that after taking the rulers in the prescribed order for a given zoidon, you move onto the next zoidon and again consider the exaltation ruler first, then the trigon ruler, etc.

4) This phrase takes care of the only exception to the instruction in the preceding phrase, which occurs from going to Ares to Kronos in Gemini (instead of vice versa). The word ?upward? specifies that this condition obtains only when the planet of double rulership in the next zoidon is also upcoming in the order of exaltation, trigon, house. This qualification rules out the only other example of a succeeding double rulership ? that is, where Kronos is followed by Hermes in Aquarius, instead of Aphrodite.?


(Golden Hind Press, 1994; pp.42-3)

---------

I don?t quite understand what Schmidt is trying to say here, and I would have thought that Schmidt?s interpretation of the actual text confirms the principle that Venus should come before Mercury in Aquarius.

If, on the other hand, Schmidt is arguing that a double rulership in the next sign comes after a remaining single rulership in the same sign, then this doesn?t make sense of Jupiter (dignified by triplicity) being placed in the 4th place instead of the 2nd in Leo, nor of Mercury (dignified by triplicity) being placed in the 4th place in Libra, instead of in the 2nd place as it is in Aquarius.

So I wonder if Schmidt really has seen this ?complete agreement? of the ?stated principles of assignment?, or if, actually, he?s just as confused as the rest of us

I am really sorry for my -- earlier. I have difficulty sometimes explaining. I hope that I have simplified this as best as possible. The way that I understand this is super easy. Not at all complex.

First: Organize your signs from Leo to Cancer instead of your typical Aries to Pisces. It will help make it understandable.

Next: It is already easily understood that Leo and Cancer have an exception but why doe he specifically say, "Mars, consequently, receives the first degrees in Cancer, and Saturn in Leo, by which arrangement a proper order is preserved"??
Leave them out for now and make a list of your first terms using this formula. Exhalt, Triplicity, House. You should end up with this:

LEO - blank

VIRGO - Exhalt- MERCURY
LIBRA - Triplicity- SATURN
SCORPIO - House - MARS
SAGG - Exhalt-S.Node
CAPRICOR - Triplicity-VENUS
AQUARIUS - House -SATURN
PISCES - Exhalt-VENUS
ARIES - Triplicity-JUPITER
TAURUS - House -VENUS
GEMINI - Exhalt- N.NODE

CANCER -blank

Through this pattern, All the signs match up with their proper first position planets except for Leo, Gemini, Saggitarius which ends up with the Sun or S.Node and N.Node. We have a rule for that though and so we know that the first position in Gemini is taken by Mercury because he has a "double dignity" here. First position of Sagg is Jupiter because he is "double".

Under this pattern, For Cancer, we would look to triplicity ruler and for Leo, we would look to house ruler. Therefore Mars takes Cancer?s first term and Sun would be first term for Leo. However, Sun cannot take first place and there is no double dignity in Leo. Saturn therefore takes first term here and as Ptolemy says, ?Saturn in Leo, by which arrangement a proper order is preserved?

LAST TERMS

Once the first term is decided, it is time to place the malefics. The way that I understand this is that the most ?potent? planet comes first and the lest ?potent? last.

In the below list, you will find that 5 of 12 signs begin with a malefic and so placing the other malefic last is not that complex.

In Virgo, Saggitarius and Taurus neither malefic is dignified. The simple explanation for this is that the whole idea of the order follows the idea that the last term is associated with the weakest malefic. Mars is naturally weaker that Saturn unless he is dignified otherwise ad so he is naturally placed last. With Pisces, Aries and Gemini the least dignified malefic takes the last place and the other second last.

Capricorn is the only sign here that has any figuring involved, and it?s hardly complicated either. Mars rules exhalt and Saturn rules house, so Saturn is the least dignified and therefore goes last.

LEO House - SUN (SATURN)
? Saturn is first so mars is last

VIRGO Exhalt - MERCURY
? Neither has dignity

LIBRA Triplicity- SATURN
? Saturn is first so mars is last

SCORPIO - House - MARS
? Mars is first so, Saturn is last

SAGGITARIUS - Exhalt-S.NodeJUPITER wins from double
? Neither has dignity

CAPRICORN - Triplicity-VENUS
? Both have dignity but Mars is Exalt and Saturn house so Saturn is last, Mars second last

AQUARIUS - House -SATURN
? Saturn is first and so Mars is last

PISCES ? Exhalt -VENUS
? Mars has dignity and so Saturn is last, Mars second last

ARIES -Triplicity -JUPITER
? Mars has dignity by house and Saturn none so Saturn is last, Mars second last

TAURUS - House -VENUS
? Neither has dignity

GEMINI - Exhalt- S.NODE (MERCURY)
? Saturn has dignity by triplicity so mars is last, Saturn second last

CANCER - Triplicity-MARS
? Mars is first so Saturn is last

MIDDLE TERMS

I?ve placed Leo last here because it is the only sign that has any question attached to it. When placed in this order, the original order that Ptolemy describes, the terms sort themselves quite easily and it is very easy to duplicate. Simply go in order and each term will be described. I have crossed out the planets that have already been used or are not usable just to make it easier to follow but it just doesn't work in this forum..AHH! So here is what you do:
Take your 'starting planet', in Virgo below, I started with the exhalt ruler so next is triplicity, next house, next signs exhalt...... Then cross out all the 'used or unavailable planets. Then betow on your order!!

VIRGO - Exhalt- MERCURY
? Virgo triplicity ?VENUS, MOON
? Virgo house ? MERCURY
? Libra exhalt ? SATURN
? Libra triplicity ?SATURN, MERCURY
? Libra house-VENUS
? Scorpio exhalt ?MARS
? Scorpio triplicity ?MARS
? Scorpio house ?MARS
o Mercury, Venus, Jupiter left, Saturn, Mars

LIBRA - Triplicity- SATURN, MERCURY
? Libra house ?VENUS
? Libra exhalt ?SATURN
? Scorpio exhalt ?MARS
? Scorpio triplicity ?MARS, MARS
? Scorpio house ?MARS
? Saggitarius exhalt ? S.NODE
? Saggitarius tripliciy ?SUN, JUPITER
o Saturn, Venus, Jupiter, Mercury, Mars
o It?s important to take note that Mercury is last here. The order used all along has been Exhalt, triplicity, house and no where does Ptolemy elude to the order as being exhalt, day triplicity, night triplicity, house. In Libra, we have started with triplicity and now must move through the order of the next two signs before ending up back on mercury.

SCORPIO - House ? MARS
? Scorpio exhalt ?MARS
? Scorpio triplicity ?MARS
? Saggitarius exhalt ? S.NODE
? Saggitarius tripliciy ?SUN, JUPITER
? Saggitarius house, JUPITER
? Capricorn exhalt ?MARS
? Capricorn triplicity ?VENUS, MOON
? Capricorn house- SATURN
o Mars, Jupiter, Venus, only Mercury left, Saturn

SAGG - Exhalt?S.NODE (JUPITER)
? Saggitarius tripliciy ?SUN, JUPITER
? Saggitarius house, JUPITER
? Capricorn exhalt -MARS
? Capricorn triplicity ?VENUS, MOON
? Capricorn house ? SATURN
? Aquarius exhalt ?NONE
? Aquarius triplicity ?SATURN MERCURY
o Jupiter, Venus, Mercury ,Saturn, Mars

CAPRICORN- Triplicity-SUN, VENUS
? Capricorn House ? SATURN
? Capricorn exhalt ?MARS
? Aquarius exhalt ?NONE
? Aquarius triplicity ?SATURN ,MERCURY
? Aquarius house- SATURN
? Pisces Exhalt ?VENUS
? Pisces Triplicity ?MARS, MARS
? Pisces House- JUPITER
o Venus, Mercury Jupiter, Mars, Saturn

AQUARIUS - House ?SATURN
? Aquarius exhalt ?NONE
? Aquarius triplicity ?SATURN, MERCURY
? Pisces exhalt ? VENUS
? Pisces tripliciy ?MARS, MARS
? Pisces house, JUPITER
? Aries exhalt ? SUN
? Aries triplicity ?SUN, JUPITER
? Aries house- MARS
o Saturn, Mercury, Venus, Jupiter, Mars

PISCES - Exhalt-VENUS
? Pisces tripliciy ?MARS
? Pisces house, JUPITER
? Aries exhalt ? SUN
? Aries triplicity ?SUN, JUPITER
? Aries house- MARS
? Taurus exhalt ?MOON
? Taurus triplicity ?VENUS MOON
? Taurus house ? VENUS
o Venus, Jupiter, Only Mercury left, Mars, Saturn

ARIES - Triplicity- SUN, JUPITER
? Aries house ?MARS
? Aries exhalt -SUN
? Taurus exhalt ?MOON
? Taurus triplicity ?VENUS, MOON
? Taurus house ? VENUS
? Gemini exhalt ? S.NODE
? Gemini triplicity ? SATURN, MERCURY
? Gemini house ? MERCURY
o Jupiter, Venus, Mercury, Mars, Saturn

TAURUS - House ?VENUS
? Taurus exhalt ?MOON
? Taurus triplicity ?VENUS, MOON
? Gemini exhalt ? S.NODE
? Gemini triplicity ? SATURN, MERCURY
? Gemini house ? MERCURY
? Cancer exhalt ? JUPITER
? Cancer triplicity ?SATURN, MERCURY
? Cancer House - MOON
o Venus, Mercury, Jupiter, Saturn, Mars

GEMINI - Exhalt- S.NODE (MERCURY)
? Gemini triplicity ? SATURN, MERCURY
? Gemini house ? MERCURY
? Cancer exhalt ? JUPITER
? Cancer triplicity ? MARS, MARS
? Cancer house ? MOON
? Leo exhalt ?SUN
? Leo Triplicity-SUN, JUPITER
? Leo House -MARS
o Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, Saturn, Mars

CANCER - Triplicity-MARS, MARS
? Cancer house - MOON
? Cancer exhalt- JUPITER
? Leo exhalt ?SUN
? Leo Triplicity-SUN, JUPITER
? Leo House -MARS
? Virgo exhalt ? MERCURY
? Virgo triplicity ?VENUS, MOON
? Virgo house - MERCURY
o Mars, Jupiter, Mercury, Venus, Saturn

LEO - House - SUN (SATURN)
? Leo exhalt ?None
? Leo triplicity ? SUN, JUPITER
? Virgo exhalt ? MERCURY
? Virgo triplicity ?VENUS, MOON
? Virgo house ? MERCURY
? Libra exhalt ? SATURN
? Libra triplicity ?SATURN, MERCURY
? Libra house- VENUS
o Saturn, Mercury, Venus, Jupiter, Mars
o Mercury must come first because he is twice in the same sign. Between Jupiter and Venus is more difficult. There is a very simple explanations that seems to follow order. We had to ?skip? Jupiter by way of placing mercury first; this means that we have to continue the succession to include Venus before we get back to Jupiter.

Okay...so... I was super worried about posting this cause it seems like I may be making some mistake or mixing tings up but...this is just how I got it?? I wouldn't be too quick to assume Ptolemy was wrong? Maybe he was? Anyways... SO SORRY FOR THE LONG POST!!

Hi Borealis,

I wouldn?t worry about making your post long. Speaking for myself, I have to be able to follow the argument through step-by-step to avoid getting confused, and I think you explained this really well.

I also think this is a very good explanation, and I encourage anyone else seriously interested in this topic to read it through carefully. There is a subtle shift in focus in the interpretation of the text that derives the order of the middle terms, so that the Aquarian terms, which could not be justified by the explanation I proposed earlier, seem to be accounted for in this. But here the Leo terms are a little problematic: we would expect that if Mercury moves upwards because of its dual rulership, it would move before Jupiter to have Jupiter sitting behind it; but this explanation suggests that it replaces Jupiter, so Jupiter loses its claim and gets shunted towards the back, behind Venus which has a weaker claim but picks up the order.

This may well be it, Borealis ? I?d like to leave it a few days and then consider it again when my mind is clearer, but I wonder if anyone else has comments or suggestions on this?

Great stuff! And thanks for posting it

Deb

So far, we have established a clear agreement on the order of the first set of terms for each sign. It also now seems agreed that the natural order for the malefics at the end of each sign should be Saturn then Mars, unless Mars has more dignity than Saturn to move it forward. That order isn?t specified as such by the text, but the order and logic of the table reveals that this has to be the case.

Previously, it was assumed that if there was any natural order in the arrangement, it would follow the sequence:

Jupiter > Venus > Mercury > Mars > Saturn

? ie, from the ?greater benefic?, to the ?lesser benefic?, to a neutral planet, to the ?lesser malefic?, to the ?greater malefic?. However, there is an order that is recognised in Babylonian astrology that is known to be invariable in the way that planetary data was presented:

Jupiter > Venus > Mercury > Saturn > Mars

Francesca Rochberg is one of the scholars to comment on this (?Babylonian Horoscopes?, pp.8-11), where she says that there is no astronomical explanation for this order and that it has to be attributed to a recognition of benefic-malefic qualities. The order of Mars before Saturn could be explained by the fact that Mars is often considered to be a particularly ?evil? planet in Babylonian astrology, but it could also be affected by the recognition of light (her suggestion). We might also consider the possibility that it produced a pattern related to planetary sect:

(diurnal) > (nocturnal) > (neutral) > (diurnal) > (nocturnal)

Whatever the case, it seems indisputable that Saturn should naturally take the 4th place in each set of terms, and Mars the 5th, unless there is good reason to place them elsewhere - heightening the possibility that this older Babylonian order was being utilised, which is an interesting point in itself.

Related to this, we might be able to clear up the doubt that hangs over the last two sets of terms in Gemini. I would imagine that by far the majority of astrologers using this set of terms today are following Lilly?s instruction that the 4th place in Gemini goes to Saturn, and then the 5th goes to Mars. The explanations put forward in this thread agree with this and support Lilly?s arrangement for Gemini as being:

Mercury > Jupiter > Venus > Saturn > Mars

However, none of the translations of Tetrabiblos that we possess support this!

Ashmand, Robbins, Boll-Boer, Hubner and Schmidt have all translated the terms of Gemini to be:

Mercury > Jupiter > Venus > Mars > Saturn

As Robert Hand?s introduction to the PH edition explains: ?most of our knowledge of Ptolemy comes from translations of translations? (iv), but since ? to date - no translator has backed up Lilly?s proposed arrangement for the terms in Gemini, there has always been the concern that this might just be a typo on his part.

However, the link that Osthanes gave on the first page of this thread leads to an article by Giuseppe Bezza and Marco Fumagalli which picks out some details of an anonymous Greek commentary on how this passage in the Tetrabiblos should be understood. Dorian Greenbaum was good enough to translate more of this article for me, and although it doesn?t go into detail over the explanation of the assignment, it does shows that the anonymous commentator (thought to be Proclus) listed them in the same order as Lilly ? Saturn then Mars, not vice versa. This makes a lot of sense because Lilly referred to a Latin translation of this commentary in his bibliography of Christian Astrology. Robert Hand has a copy of the same Latin translation that Lilly used and he is hoping to translate the relevant section as and when he has the time. I did ask him for a quick double check on the order of the terms in Gemini and he can confirm that yes, this does indeed show the order Saturn > Mars as Bezza reports.

I think this is an important point because - apart from proving once again that Lilly was not as sloppy as people presume ? the logic that has been proposed in this thread relies upon Lilly being correct in his order, and Ashmand, Robbins, Schmidt et al being wrong. Saturn has dignity in Gemini by triplicity, so if Lilly was wrong, we would have to propose a new rationale to explain why Saturn comes before Mars here, but not elsewhere.

I think it will be really useful to have the translation of that anonymous commentary before making any further conclusions on this, because from what I can gather the explanation is quite detailed and so hopefully just as illuminating. It might take some time to obtain it, but it is good to know that it is being worked on. In the meantime I?m taking the explanation that Borealis has put forward as definitely credible.

If more comes to light I?ll let it be known here. In the meantime I?m going to be patient, see what the translation turns up, and hope that it confirms a few points one way or another.

Deb