Skyscript Astrology Forum

All the house systems with no agreement like you would expect in a scientific community, has always been a criticism of astrology from my POV. Robert Hand uses Equal Houses I hear and others use Koch but most of the other astrologers I admire use Placidus so I do too. Imagine if chemists couldn't agree on one periodic chart.

You're not toalking too much so relax. I do want to make a correction here and perhaps encourage a couple of others to take a hint. Robert Hand uses whole sign houses, which he claims, along with Robert Schmidt, is the oldest house system. Unlike equal houses that begin with the ASC and each cusp is exactly 30 degrees away, whole sign houses do not have cusps. For example if the native has an ASC of 28 Gemini and an MC of 25 Pisces. 28 Gemini is the most sensitive point in the first "place," which is the entire sign of Gemini. The next place or house is the entire sign of Cancer, the third place is the entire sign of Leo and so on. The same is true of the MC, which in this case would be the entire sign of Pisces but 25 would be the most sensitive point.

What can easily happen in such a system is that the MC does not always end up in the 10th place or house. It is entirely possible that the native could have say a Leo ASC and an Aries MC. This would, for example, reveal a President of the US who is and will be best known for martial (Aries) efforts in foreign countires (9th house). Lenin was born so far north that his MC is in the 12th sign - as good a description of a professonal subversive as you will find.

This is the system used by the Hellenistic Greeks and probably Ptolemy, although Valens used what is now called the Porphry system in addition to Whole Signs. The owner of this list, our resident and should be everyone else's favorite authority on houses is not persuaded that Whole sign Houses were the original house system, but for our purposes they are well worth a look.

Here comes the hint: try this chart with Whole Sign Houses. That would put all the Aquarius stuff in the 11th, and the Moon squarely in the 5th. Ruler of the 4th in the 5th? The native's father was an artist.

Tom

Thanks Tom-

for clearing that up about Whole Signs and Equal Houses. I must plead ignorant on the relative merits of the various house systems. And though I am not what you might call "new agey" I am interested in Jungian psychology and mythology as they provide further perspectives on the chart. My main teachers have been ME Jones, Grant Lewi, Liz Greene and Howard Sasportas and the CPA teachers (probably more than any other), Melanie Reinhart, Stephen Arroyo, Hamaker-Zondag. But also James Hillman, Joseph Campbell, Carl Jung. I had my chart first drawn up by Gavin Arthur in San Francisco which is what started me along this path.

The traditional midieval approach is new to me and I'm sure there is much I can learn.

Regards the houses in this chart, using Placidus I get the Moon securely in the 5th just like Whole houses so no difference there. With the Whole house system the entire Aquarius Stellium resides in the 11th so there is a Stellium by House as well as Sign. But Aquarius and the 11th have similar themes so there is not much new information although there is further emphasis given to what has already been suggested by the Aquarius Stellium and Sun-Uranus conjunct in 11th and the Sole Dispositor Uranus.

Would you consider the Jupiter-Mercury conjunction, since it is so close to the 12th cusp in the Whole house chart, as possibly being experienced by this man as if it were in the 12th? From what you know of his life, which house for that conjunction makes more sense?

I was thinking that Uranus is so powerful and the Sun is in Detriment and the two are inimical to each other that the Sun might be completely overwhelmed and have trouble shining were it not that the Full Moon reflects back solar themes by it's sign and house. It seems like such a dynamic engine in this chart and helps further establish the polarity suggested by the See Saw configuration split between the Northern and Southern hemispheres and the Full Moon.

Liz Greene says that when an outer planet (and let's face it they are all pretty alien and difficult for us) makes such a powerful appearance in a chart there has to be a very strong sense of Self so that the titanic unconscious forces do not run riot and devour the individual.

Tony and Tom ?

Thanks for the info regards rectification. I find posting blind on these mystery charts to be daunting enough, add to it the many experts on this forum... Anyway, feeling a little less blind due to Tom's helpful corroboration to subsequent posts made by trailblazers Tony Louis and Libra29, here goes?

The optimism inherent in his choleric temperament aids him in bearing up or overcoming the depressive, isolating tendencies indicated by Venus oppose Saturn on the MC/IC angles (Saturn is within 5 degrees if the IC therefore I would count it as a conjunction to the IC even though it is in a different sign)

He is most likely a writer-teacher with strong liberal and humanitarian inclinations. I ruled out music, painting and drama because the Mercury-Jupiter-Sun-LoA conjunction (I use 17 degrees for Sun conjunctions) combined with Saturn reception plus air signs is much stronger than Venus-Moon influence. In addition, Saturn inhibits Venus by opposition without reception. However, the Venus sextile Mercury-Jupiter adds pleasant and lyrical.

Most striking to me about this chart is that Mercury and Jupiter in Aquarius are making a phasis with mutual reception from Saturn in Gemini (to Mercury) by trine aspect. Saturn (which rules the MC, profession, and rules 11th, both good houses) receives all the Aquarius planets, but most especially the close Mercury-Jupiter conjunction by tight harmonious aspect. Rare indeed.

Phasis recap: A planet making a phasis is said to be intensified in that its effects are multiplied (more numerous) and prominent. Briefly, phasis is defined as a planet within 15 degrees of the Sun (on the edge of the sunbeams) within a week of the birth. Visually, the planet making a phasis can be seen to make a bright, quick flash of light (green in color usually) right before it sets (if setting) or, if rising, right before it is lost in the daylight of the rising Sun. Or a planet making a station is said to be making a phasis (no flash, unless also 15 deg from Sun). In Hellenistic astrology, Robert Schmidt translates ?phasis? as ?an appearance that speaks?. I find that planets making a phasis do seem to take on their own life.

In light of this configuration, I would add ?prolific? to writer due to both the expansiveness of Jupiter?s and the North Node?s influence with Mercury and the Sun along with Sun energized by Mars. Saturn?s influence inclines him to address serious topics (balanced with Jupiter optimism). Jupiter is a natural significator of teachers and Mercury the wordsmith, thus my initial statement of ?writer-teacher?. One can?t get very far into reading Lilly without Jupiter frequently coming up as either ?ecclesiastical men? or judges, councilors, lawyers, scholars (CA, p. 63) to name a few. In other words, either spiritual law or secular law. In modern times a religiously inclined person might instead become philosopher, humanitarian. Venus is in the 9th, received by Jupiter (with sextile=charitable, kindly plus Venus delights in 9th house significations) and Jupiter rules 9th (law, vision, religion, teaching) and 12th (regio and placidus houses put Jupiter and Mercury in the 12th; 5 degree rule) making him contemplative and content somewhat behind the scenes - which all further corroborates writer-teacher.

His active 11th house luminary, Sun, with Mars draws him into friendship circles, aspiring group associations ? he is a ?favorite of kings? while still being extremely individual minded in his beliefs. Mercury rules 3rd (again writing, communicating, teaching) and 6th (work). Mercury is fast, direct and moving away from Sun (adds further to influence of Mercury).

I always put a chart through its professional indicator paces, beginning with Lilly?s recommendations, CA, p. 624 for Mercury, Venus and Mars. In this case, I concluded Mercury. Mars came close (ascending before the Sun) but I rejected it due to its condition under Sun beams.

The Leo full Moon is also expressive, and trine the Ascendant adds to his good feelings and charm. However, Aries Ascendant with LoA Mars conjunct the Sun (under beams but not combust, not making a phasis, plus separating) and oppose Moon he is a healthy fighter (can be angry-outraged-emotional-impulsive) but, once again, the mental realms are stronger (in this case stronger than the physical in terms of profession) and I do not see criminal indicators. I would say his fight is more ideological (for freedom as in the typical Aquarian 11th house quest which so dominates this chart). The Saturn reception by trine is overall steadying but it comes with some troubles due to it being malefic by nature.

I have somewhat neglected the luminaries, which are strongly configured (some favorable, some difficult - the Mars and full Moon are troubling). I will leave that for another day ? my focus was primarily on his unique phasis configuration, which is solar based.

Regards,
Alex

Can we find a career? What about other talents?

With the holidays coming it's been hard to find free time to spend on this chart. Convinced that the birth time is fairly accurate and the angles have the correct signs on the cusp, I would make the following observations:

Mars rules the ASC by sign and the MC by exaltation. Hence Mars is a key to both his talents (ASC) and his career (MC). He is symbolically a fighter, a warrior of some type. His career is an assertive expression of his personal goals and ambitions. Who he is and what he does in the world are closely linked and find expression in this assertive Martian energy.

Mars closely sextiles the ASC and semi-sextiles the MC. The ASC ruler sextile the ASC is a favorable aspect, suggesting natural self-expression. He is at home with his outwardly directed assertive energy. He can harmoniously and actively pursue personal goals. He has natural leadership ability. He may be some type of pioneer whom others are drawn to follow. The semi-sextile, I find, is a stressful aspect. The close Mars semi-sextile MC suggests some difficulty or friction caused by trying to direct his personal 1st house ambitions toward worldly achievement. Though he is a natrual leader, there is some conflict or trouble when he tries to pursue career goals using his Martian energy. Since Mars rules the 11th by exaltation, perhaps his friends get in the way of his professional endeavors.

Mars occupies Aquarius and the 11th house. Aquarius is a fixed air sign. I believe that Robert Zoller also has Mars in Aquarius in the 11th, and he attributes his interest in pursuing and acquiring esoteric knowlege to this placement. He also thinks it reflects his attraction to bellicose or warring friends and causes conflicts (Mars) in his social life. I find Aquarius to be a somewhat willful sign with an emphasis on independent thinking and "doing it my way." Modern astrologers believe it to be a humanitarian sign of universal brotherhood.

The Sun rules the ASC by exaltation and also occupies Aquarius and the 11th house, re-emphasizing the Mars in Aquarius in the 11th themes. Again he is likely to be independent and innovative, and convinced of the rightness of his ideas.

Saturn rules the MC (career) and lies in Gemini in the 3rd house. Here there is an emphasis on serious ideas, writing, communication, teaching, etc. Mercury rules the 3rd house cusp and trines Saturn from Aquarius and the 12th house. This suggests talents related to Gemini and 3rd house matters. Jupiter conjoins Mercury in Aquarius in the 12th and also trines MC-ruler Saturn in the 3rd. At the same time Jupiter sextiles the MC, so there is a stronger Jupiterian influence on career (that is, Jupiter sextile MC and trine MC ruler Saturn). The favorable Jupiter aspects involving the MC suggest much career success.

Jupiter occupies the 12th, rules Pisces in the 12th, and rules the 9th. This suggests a career related to Jupiter, 9th and 12th house matters, which could include higher education, foreign affairs, long-distance travel, religion, the law, publishing, hosptial or charity work, etc. The strong Mars influence suggests that he is a leader in his field.

An important career event should occur when the MC crosses Mars (exaltation ruler of MC) by primary direction. I get the following dates:

MC crosses Mars (converse) March 1946
Mars crosses MC (direct) June 1947.

I would expect 1946-47 to be a dramatic time in his professional life.

PS: Just after I finished this post Ralph Holden's book on House Division arrived in the mail. It is a classic text from 1977. For the fun of it I looked up Holden's delineations of the basic meanings of the houses. In this mystery chart, the career is most closely related to the 3rd, 9th, 11th, and 12th houses. Here are Holden's key words:

3rd: "power of mind, dexterity, cleverness, education, short journey, near relatives, neighbors, writing, communication, recording, lecturing."
9th: "philosophy, religion, law, travel, exploration, research, foreign lands or people, higher education, publishing."
11th: "friends, contacts, clubs, social groups, humanitarian enterprises, altrusim, hopes and wishes."
12th: "sacrificial service, repressions, neurosis, hidden enemies, prisons, asylums, instituions, occultism, mysticism, secrets."

Since the aspects between the planets related to career are largely favorable, I would lean toward the more positive words in this list. For example, we might conclude that this person has a powerful mind and is a good communicator. He loves abstract ideas related to philosophy, law, and religion. He enjoys travel and contact with foreigners. Friends are important to his career. He is likely to be altruistic and interested in humanitarian ideas. He may perform some type of sacrificial service, perhaps to those in prisions or asylums. He may be drawn to occultism and mysticism.

Hi Libra:

Would you consider the Jupiter-Mercury conjunction, since it is so close to the 12th cusp in the Whole house chart, as possibly being experienced by this man as if it were in the 12th?

Whole signs don't work that way. If in a quadrant system the conjunction was within five degrees of the 12th cusp, I would consider it a 12th house placement, but whole signs don't really have cusps, so the place or domicile or house is where they stay.

From what you know of his life, which house for that conjunction makes more sense?

They both do. In traditional or medieval astrology planets in the 12th are considered poorly placed as they cannot "get out" or express themselves properly. Using this logic a nasty planet say Saturn in Aries, would be pretty well placed in the 12th since he couldn't work his mischief, but a strong planet in the 12th would be a disadvantage. However, a strong planet in the 12th in aspect to one of its dispositors (domicile, exaltation and maybe triplicity), and aspect by sign is enough, would be able to "get out and express itself.

In this chart The Mercury- Jupiter conjunction is in tight aspect to its domicile ruler, Saturn in the 3rd and thus find expression that way. On the other hand, knowing what I do about the native the 12th house, in one of its more benign meanings, fits him perfectly. The trick is to understand the traditional meaning of the 11th house. Mostly it means friends, but as it is next to the 10th it also means "Gifts from teh King or Gifts from God." It is considered the most fortunate house in the chart and in traditional astrology the idea that sign=planet =house is often left at the door.

The great French astrologer, Jean Baptiste Morin (1583 - 1656) had an interesting way to look at houses. He noticed that there were four "grand trines" of houses. Each trine consisted of one angular, one succedent and one cadent house. He believed that each of these houses influenced the other. So the 11th would be influenced by the 7th and the 3rd. In his words these houses represent the triplicity of the West Angle. Reading counter-clockwise from the 7th we have the conjunction of the body (7th), matrimony, the second conjunction, (3rd house) of the blood, siblings and the third conjunction is benevolence from which arise friends (11th). Therefore this is the triplicity of love. Big hint: our native does not marry.

The 7th is ruled by Venus and she is in the 9th. The third is ruled by Mercury and holds Saturn, and Tony said it perfectly "serious writing." Aspects qualify so we have to add Jupiter and if we read Alex post we know what Jupiter means and therefore what he wrote about. The 11th is benevolence and it is loaded. We could write a decent sized book on this house alone.

I am seriously impressed with all the things written about this chart and so many of them are so right on the money. I'll reveal the name tomorow, and maybe we can go over some it before Christmas.

Tom

I tried monkeying with both the birth time and the various keys and could not get the first year of life move and the death of the mother to have tight hits with one birth time and one key.

The primary directed MC Saturn opposition occurred in 1920 with this birth time. You had written that the mother was diagnosed with stomach cancer in 1920 and that she died in 1921. It may be that the 1920 date corresponds to this native's experience of loss of his mother due to her diagnosis and preoccupation with her illness. In other words, the Saturn direction may correlate with the mother's onset of cancer rather than with her death which followed as a consequence a year later. Since Saturn rules the 10th of the mother, the MC oppose Saturn could signify a serious illness (since the MC is the mother's ASC in this native's chart). If this is the case, the birth time works out very well.

Since Saturn rules the 10th of the mother, the MC oppose Saturn could signify a serious illness (since the MC is the mother's ASC in this native's chart). If this is the case, the birth time works out very well.

Yes, this makes sense. It also validates the birthplace which is Prads, France. There is a Prades, France which produces a slightly different chart. I used the chart given by my source, and these directions validate that.

I'll post the name later on today, Friday Dec 22.

Tom

I have Pluto in the 4th house too and I've been living in a foreing country for years. Could anyone tell me how to work out the 'Lot of Being Away From Home?'

Steven wrote:

One signification that is often forgotten about Venus is that it signified the priest or priestess role in holy rites and sanctification.

Wow! This quality of Venus is something that I've been suspecting recently by myself and it's nice to get an affirmation to that. Thanks Steven!