I agree about Jeff Green. He survived the hell of Viet Nam as a young Marine and came out of it a mystic, borrowing much from the Bhuddist tradition. Pluto is very important, but you have some other good hints. The 9th, the ruler of the 9th, the general spread of the planets around the wheel, the moon's nodes, and Neptune, the whirling dervish of spirituality, formless and deceptive. Good luck, and let us know how you like Green's book. I wish I could afford a reading by him.

So how did the soul cope before the discovery of Pluto?

I think the there can be several indicators of spirituality in a chart. However, I would go along with Moondances suggestion of the 9th house and its rulers placement as a good starting point. If spirituality is to be seen in terms of our whole being I would have thought the whole chart has something meaningful to say. I am not sure this is the kind of question I would try to ask with horary for that reason.

I haven't read Jeff Green's book. However, I do think there is far too much focus on the outer planets generally. After, all these are the least personal aspects of your chart which you share with many many others. The angles are moving a degree every 4 minutes while the moon moves roughly a degree every two hours. In terms of individualised aspects of your chart I feel these tell us a lot. Unless you have them sitting smack on an angle or conjoining a key planet or in a close applying aspect I would give the outers very low priority-in natal or horary.

Incidentally, dont forget the fixed stars. If we are discussing destiny , especially in natal charts these can be very significant. especially if on an angle or the Moon.

I don't know how much Jeff Green has studied Buddhism but as a long time practitioner I thought I would like to point out that the central teaching of Buddhism is that there is no soul, at least no eternal essence that remains unchanging within us. That doesn't mean we cannot discuss spirituality. I fully respect the beliefs of those that see things differently.

Ironically, a tradition like Buddhism is not about focusing on 'me' and my spiritual mission. Instead its about letting go of self through the ongoing investigation of the changing process of body and mind and opening the heart. I sometimes have my doubts if astrology is a helpful tool in that process! A sceptical friend of my mine recently asked..does astrology make you a better person? Its a good question to ask ourselves........

I offer the words of the 13th century Zen Master Dogen:

''To study the Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be enlightened by all things of the universe. ''

Mark

From what I understood from one of my teachers, the Bardos are the demons that visit you while you are dying, to fill you with fear that you must conquer before you pass the veil. I'm not a Buddhist, but I do agree in my heart with many of the teachings of the Buddha.

I am in the middle as far as the outer planets go. I know, for *sure* that Pluto packs a wallop, as it has been conjunct my natal Sun for the last year! It's been a brilliant experience, actually, so maybe there is something to be said for Pluto and the personal journey.

Southern Writer, my chart is thus: Pluto 27 deg Virgo H8; Venus 17 deg Sag H11; Sun 26 deg Sag H11; N. Node 15 deg Pis H1 (may be read in H2 as the cusp is 16 deg Pis). It's a wide square from Pluto to Venus, but it works much of the time in my chart. It's a wide aspect between South Node and Pluto, but they both square Venus. Uranus is at 8 deg Libra H8, and makes a wide sextile to my Venus. We shall not discuss my proclivities nor past activities here!

I think astrology *can* make you a better person if you bring to bear the lessons you learn through self-examination and understanding. But I think the tendency of many people is to say, 'Well, I'm a [insert sign/aspect]' and leave it at that, rather than taking into account that people shift and change in perception and expression throughout their lifetimes.

The Bardo is a place. The demons you speak of are mentioned in the Tibetan and Egyptian Books of the Dead, in the manner that you mention them, but I'm skeptical. No one I know who has died or has had a NDE has reported anything like that.

I agree with you about Pluto packing a wallop. I had several wallops before I discovered its meaning, and when I went back and looked at its transits of other planets and points in my chart, it was easy to see they all coincided with major turning points in my life.

The sign position of Pluto is a generational influence. The house position is what's important to your unique chart, as is its polarity point, the second house. Pluto's close square to the sun shows that you're learning to take control of your own destiny and create it through the strength of your own will. You're learning about the limits of personal power. Also one of your parents has dominated your development as an individual (I'm guessing father because of the square to your sun, but if Saturn and the moon are conjunct in your chart, the issues may be with your mother. Their relationships to Pluto and the nodes will reveal which of your parents has control over you) You have a special purpose in life, and it's up to you to accomplish it. This aspect is all about power, who has it, and who's trying to obtain or keep it. It's important that you don't use your power to manipulate others, but instead, help them to find their own power. Of course, there's much more to this, but you'll understand better by studying it yourself than you will by me telling you. As much as I would love to write it all out for you, I regret I just don't have the time.

Pluto's square to Venus means just what you think it means, but these issues are only beginning to develop in this lifetime. Your progressed Venus would have squared your natal Pluto when you were about ten years old. Do you have Scorpio on the MC, or do you have interceptions? Do you recall a related event that took place that year? If you can, that's a clue to some issues you will be working on much more in future lives.

Your south node in Virgo is disposited by Mercury. which trines your south node, doesn't it? Your powers of discrimination have been honed in the past lives. You have a good sense of what is right for you. Mercury's sign position will give you an idea of how you have dealt with issues of power in your past. These are ways that are familiar to your soul, and therefore easy to fall back on.

The north node is your precipice. Are you familiar with Appolinaire?

"Come to the edge," he said.
"We're afraid," they said.
"Come to the edge," he said.
They came to the edge.
He pushed them. They flew.

The north node is the future, the unfamiliar, and therefore scary, but exactly where you are supposed to go! Your north node is in Pisces, disposited by Neptune (Is it opposed to your moon?). What does Neptune do in your chart? Are you artisitc, musical, psychic, spiritual? Figure out your Neptune and jump off the cliff. That's where you'll fly. Your soul's purpose involves some form of creative power.

"When the student is ready, the teacher will appear." If you're ready, get Jeff's book, even if you borrow it from the library.

Wow, you were pretty spot-on, Southern Writer! I am MOST impressed. I *do* have Scorpio on the MC (Neptune conjunct). I DO have Moon/Saturn conjunct in the 3rd (opposing Jupiter in Scorpio in the 9th). Mercury in Cap in the 12th. My life thus far has been very much about power; very much a 'phoenix' life, with many rebirths. I understand what you are saying completely.

As to Bardos: a man you could call my spiritual mentor told me about these. When his very elderly mother was dying of cancer, she began to see her already-dead brother and her father waiting at the door to her room, presumably to accompany her on her journey through the final door. She also began to struggle with the sorrows and regrets of her life, as well as fears for herself and for those she was leaving behind; these are not demons in the literal sense, but anyone who has ever done or not done something they regret will understand the metaphor. My mentor called these the bardos; he studied under a Tibetan shaman for a number of years, so this must be where his terminology came from. In the end she released everything and passed away peacefully. It was, in some ways, a good death, from what I know.

Anyhow, all this is off the subject! Wasn't this supposed to be a horary thread?

So how did the soul cope before the discovery of Pluto?

In Classical astrology the Moon is the significator of bodily conditions and the Sun is the significator of the mind, soul and spirit. For example, Valens BkI, Part I the Sun is ?the light of the mind, the organ of perception of the soul?.

Also in Bk IV.4:

?For the Moon, being cosmically fate and body and breath (since it is near the earth and sends its effluence to us) produces something of a like kind as it is the lady of our body. The Sun, being cosmically mind and spirit through its own activity and pleasant nature, since it arouses the souls of men for undertakings, is established as a cause of action and motion.?

Dorian Greenbaum has recently been exploring this in detail in some of her recent papers on the Lot of Fortune (Moon/body based) and its counterpart, the Lot of spirit (Sun/soul based).

In Classical astrology the Moon is the significator of bodily conditions and the Sun is the significator of the mind, soul and spirit. For example, Valens BkI, Part I the Sun is ?the light of the mind, the organ of perception of the soul?.

Yes, that is what I thought, too. I don't mind exploring the more modern interpretations/planets, but for me they are the icing on a very substantial cake.

Deb wrote:

Dorian Greenbaum has recently been exploring this in detail in some of her recent papers on the Lot of Fortune (Moon/body based) and its counterpart, the Lot of spirit (Sun/soul based).

Hi Deb, are these papers published somewhere?

In Classical astrology the Moon is the significator of bodily conditions and the Sun is the significator of the mind, soul and spirit. For example, Valens BkI, Part I the Sun is ?the light of the mind, the organ of perception of the soul?.

Thanks Deb. I haven't read Liz Greene's book on the role of the astrological Sun ( 'Apollo's Chariot') but I suspect it might provide some interesting cross fertilisation of ideas with traditional sources.

Hopefully I should be able to check out Valens myself soon as I have signed up to Project Hindsight's 'Astrologers Edition' of hellenistic texts. I am quite excited as my first volume of Valens Anthology is arriving in a few weeks!

Dorian Greenbaum is a mine of fascinating insights on hellenistic astrology. At the History of Astrology conference in London last year she gave a a totally absorbing talk entitled 'Vettius Valens' Daimon and Fate in Astrology'. That 30 min talk could have filled a whole workshop. I think Dorian is a PHD candidate at the Warburg Institute. That can only be good news for all of us.

I am curious too though Deb. Are these papers you discuss published research by Dorian Greenbaum? I know you were at the Ancient astrology conference at the Warburg Institute recently so you presumably have the latest information?

in Tetrabiblos Ptolemy has also talked about the "soul" in two chapters: BookIII: 13 Of the quality of the soul; 14 of diseases of the soul.

Thank you for the Ptolemy references Themis.

Hey Archergirl, glad to be of service. I understand what you're saying about the Bardo. I have heard some reports like that. Maybe it's both things - the experience of coming to terms with death - and a place in the afterlife? I'll ask my Hindu friend. He'll probably explain the difference to me.

Before I go any farther, I'd like to agree with this:

I am one of those horrible beings who gets disgusted by those who want to divorce themselves from life, who think that of the body is less devine. I think they have it completely opposite from the reality. That of the body, is the point. You dont need to learn how to be a spiritual being you are one, and always will be. You seriously need to learn how to be a decent physical being though... so few seem to get that.

I don't get disgusted, but I agree to a great extent. We were sent to a material world for a reason.

Then, I have to say that one of the things that turns me off about astrologers is the fierce competitiveness among them. It's almost as bad as organized religion. We, of all people, should understand there are as many paths to enlightenment as there are people. We, of all people, understand the laws of karma and the Universe, and should be more tolerant of differing opinions, but that's not the way we behave. There seems to be a vested interest in our being right, and everyone else being wrong. I'm getting a strong sense of that here. I'm disappointed, but not surprised. Good on all of you, blessings on your path, namaste.


There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance ? that principle is contempt prior to investigation. ? Herbert Spencer


Humanity searches; it undergoes unspeakable trials and tribulations to discover great truths, make great discoveries, and people are so reluctant even to stretch out their hands and take what is freely offered them.
~ Stanislavsky

Hi Siraxi,

I personally would start with Moon, Mercury ...

"Of the qualities of the soul, those which concern the reason and the mind are apprehended by means of the condition of Mercury observed on the particular occasion; and the qualities of the sensory and irrational part are discovered from the one of the luminaries which is the more corporeal, that is the Moon and from the planets configurated with her in her separations and applications."
Tetrabiblos, III, 13, pge 333.

... and proceed from there.

In addition, Moon is co-significator for the 1st in horary, so would be considering it as part of 1st house considerations anyway.

In terms of soul purpose, 'realizing' that purpose, that seems to me to be something of a Sun, Saturn question ... in addition, the North Node is the Moon's forward/ascending intersection of the ecliptic (primary Sun-Earth connection), so if considering realizing, manifesting and ascending to attain one's soul purpose on this planet, NNode I'd have thought also a consideration.

Seeds (Mercury) are/were planted according to the cycles of the Moon, nurtured during gestation by an array of influences, warmed and encouraged to sprout by the Sun (into realization) to attain their full height and purpose.

( 'Apollo's Chariot')

Interesting, seems a bit like Mercury's vehicle for realization/recognition.

If I remember rightly, Apollo was initially Mercury ... later becoming conflated with Helios (Sun) as Apollo Helios, and then Sol; as was his twin sister Selene later Artemis with the Moon.

Seems to reflect Mercury's solar attributes/dimension ... representing one half of the duality of Mercury.

Mercury's been given to divination and secret knowledge (eg. reading oracles); the Moon also to ingenious sciences, the intuitive (& subconscious, memory) faculties.

Kind regards,
TS.