Hi Mark,

I for one didn't think you sounded the least bit 'malefic' or harsh; on the contrary, you said what you had to say with gentleness and respect.

But speaking of malefics ... can we expect NOTHING good to ever come of any question ruled by Saturn while it is in its detriment in Leo, let alone Rx?

Because I've done a couple of horaries recently where Saturn was L. 9 in travel questions. In one case, there was an applying trine and in the other an applying sextile from L.1 to Saturn so I said yes, go ahead, you should make the trip, albeit with some nervousness about Saturn's poor condition. One person has made his journey already and reported back that it was a good trip and the right thing to do.

I'd really like to hear people's thoughts about the potential for positive outcomes in Saturn ruled questions at this time.

I know what you mean about Saturn in Leo. I guess there are always mitigating factors such as good house placement, aspects , direct motion, fixed stars, antiscion to a benefic etc. Still in terms of essential dignity it remains a debilitated malefic in Leo whether retrograde or direct. If I was electing an event I think I would prefer to see it tucked away in a cadent house (limiting its power to act) aspecting as few key significators as possible!

I'm interested you have had some positive outcomes with Saturn as a key significator. However, context is everything. You mentioned Saturn was L9 in your chart but what house was it placed in? Presumably there were a lot of contrary elements in the chart. For example how was the Moon placed?


Mark

Thanks to Deb, Alanna and Mark for thrashing this one out!! I can totally se what you mean, Deb, when you sound "harsh" about the prospects of "romance" here. I suppose a lot of the problem is the general tone of the question I asked. But there was nobody specific in mind when I asked the question, and again, to clarify, I don't want to get into another romantic relationship yet. I guess I should have rephrased it - Will i be having some fun soon? The relationship I came out of just didnt excite me any longer and I suppose that's what I'm looking for right now.

Deb absolutely hit the nail on the head when she talked about this being more about the end of a relationship and pointed to Saturn's involvement opposing the Moon. I suppose there is naivety (moon conjunct neptune) in asking such a question after splitting from a 2year relationship, and the split was going to impact things. I'm not sure what the 6th house refers to, though i have been having slight health problems which may mean i'm not "up to" anything much now. Venus and Mars separating by sextile, as Alanna mentioned, probably does represent the good feeling my ex and I have towards each other.

However, with a busy 5th house I'm stil hopeful of some excitement! I know people may think that a desire for "romance" always equals a desire for relationship or commitment, but not in this case! Maybe I should ask a more fitting question?

Many thanks for all your insight, it is much appreciated.
Minnie

Hi Minnie ? thanks for being a good sport in allowing us to analyse your romance issues and then giving us some feedback

Alanna wrote:
can we expect NOTHING good to ever come of any question ruled by Saturn while it is in its detriment in Leo, let alone Rx?

Under certain circumstances yes, because we also have to consider the influence of accidental dignities ? but here the Moon is not well placed and applying in opposition too, and the Moon?s square or opposition to the malefics is always going to be testing.

Also, I think it is very important to think about the temperament of the planet in relation to how well that fits the purpose of the signification. This is someone wanting a bit more fun with her 5th house theme signified by Saturn. I can?t think of any planet more antipathetic to the needs of fun and romance than Saturn, which offers strength through application and realism. So in that sense, I think that Saturn is more of a ?malefic? planet here than elsewhere. (If this was a career or property issue, Saturn could be taken as a much more sympathetic significator).

Minnie wrote:
I'm not sure what the 6th house refers to, though i have been having slight health problems which may mean i'm not "up to" anything much now.

From your last post we can see that you have been feeling really fed up and lacking in fun and stimulation. That is very 6th house, so my feeling is that this is pointing to low spirits and your emotional sense of inhibition, rather than you needing to worry greatly about your physical health (although the two are often tied of course).

Although this all sounds quite bleak, a more positive outlook is the fact that the chart (especially through the Moon?s applying conjunction with the Sun), suggests that you are still in the final stages of closing down an ?old you?. I don?t think that you have quite worked through that yet, and suspect that you are currently analysing what you can change about yourself and your life as you digest the lessons of that old relationship and fully let go of it. I?d expect that you still have a few emotional ups and downs to go through, because you are still stabilising yourself emotionally. But the purpose of this is to make the preparations for the ?new you? that will eventually emerge. So this is not the time to give up hope! (Saturn just needs you to be a bit more realistic about the timing of this process )

Mark wrote:
I'm interested you have had some positive outcomes with Saturn as a key significator. However, context is everything. You mentioned Saturn was L9 in your chart but what house was it placed in? Presumably there were a lot of contrary elements in the chart. For example how was the Moon placed?

Chart time was: Dec.22/06; 3:17 pm, Toronto. Question was, "Should I take this trip?" Saturn was in the 4th and the Moon was at 29 Capricorn in the 9th. These two things: L.1 (Mercury Sag) sextile L.9 and Moon in 9 prompted me to say "yes you should go." However I had deep reservations and told him not to take unnecessary risks but exercise sensible precautions in whatever he did because Mars was opposed ASC, Neptune on the MC (and it was partially an ocean cruise), and with Saturn in the 4th I had fears he would drown and it would all be my fault because I told him to go! The trip didn't look like a barrel of laughs that's for sure. What I heard back from him was, "The trip went well and it was the right thing to do."

And I too will be glad when Saturn isn't such a party pooper any more.

Seems to me that if the moon was at 29 degrees Capricorn, I wouldn't have bothered reading the chart!

Seems to me that if the moon was at 29 degrees Capricorn, I wouldn't have bothered reading the chart!

Why not, archergirl? The moon was not void of course, it was conjunct the 9th house cusp in a travel question and within orb of an applying sextile to Jupiter. I didn't like that 29 degrees much either but things were at least about to change for the better as the moon was about to leave the sign of its detriment.

Anyway the proof is in the pudding. My client confirmed that his trip turned out well.

What I think I meant to say was, if it was such a late degree moon and nothing else was sending up a red flag in the chart, I wouldn't bother reading it because 'nothing would come' of the question, e.g. there wouldn't be any problems. Sometimes it's just the one thing in the chart that tells you, 'Don't bother', and there's probably a reason these things are mentioned in the 'Strictures against judgement'. As you say, though, it was within orb of perfecting a sextile, so that changes it.

Deb's post was very instructive in showing the more positive psychological insights horary can illuminate rather than just using it for fatalistic gloom! I also found her reference of linking the planetary signification to the question instructive.

I was also intrigued by the Archergirl's reference to not reading a chart with a Moon late in sign. Its undeniable Lilly added this to his considerations before judgement. In particular he stated that charts shouldn't be read with the Moon in the late degrees of Scorpio, Capricorn or Gemini. There appear to be no charts in Christian Astrology showing a late Moon in these signs.

However, this not a traditional consideration before judgement mentioned by Guido Bonatti. Indeed, Maurice McCann suggests this consideration may have been 'invented' by Lilly. He states that while some other astrologers adopted a similar approach to a late degree Moon in horary Lilly was unique in specifically focusing on Scorpio, Capricorn and Gemini. McCann claims none of Lilly's 17th century contemporaries adopted this consideration.

http://cura.free.fr/decem/08mccann.html


Its an interesting issue. I haven't studied Tara's chart ( aka Alanna) but surely the Moon moving from Capricorn to Aquarius is a good thing? Clearly, a change of sign indicates a change of circumstances and a move to a new situation. In terms of dignities the Moon is leaving its sign of detriment to a peregrine status in Aquarius. The 'wandering' nature of a peregrine planet in the 9th house seems appropriate for a travelling question! I know the 29th degree is often referred to as an anaretic degree and a place of vulnerability. Still, the fast moving pace of the Moon gives me less cause for concern. That combined with a sextile to Jupiter seems more positive.

I think this is one of the considerations I am more sceptical about. Unless you try and judge such charts how can you know if its true or not?

Mark

Its undeniable Lilly added this to his considerations before judgement. In particular he stated that charts shouldn't be read with the Moon in the late degrees of Scorpio, Capricorn or Gemini. There appear to be no charts in Christian Astrology showing a late Moon in these signs.

However, this not a traditional consideration before judgement mentioned by Guido Bonatti. Indeed, Maurice McCann suggests this consideration may have been 'invented' by Lilly. He states that while some other astrologers adopted a similar approach to a late degree Moon in horary Lilly was unique in specifically focusing on Scorpio, Capricorn and Gemini. McCann claims none of Lilly's 17th century contemporaries adopted this consideration.

I personally doubt this very much ? for one thing, from what is known about Lilly it is clear that he was not an innovator of technique. Where he disagreed with his authorities, he took pains to explain why. (I also doubt Maurice McCann?s suggestion that Bonatus made up the considerations he did report, for the same reason). Lilly states that he is passing on warnings given by ?ancients? and there doesn?t seem to be any reason to mistrust this. The problem we have in identifying these aphorisms in earlier sources is that so very few of the works that Lilly had access to remain accessible to us. For example, Lilly gives a lot of acknowledgment to Alkindi, but Alkindi's works on judicial astrology are not currently available for us to check (with luck a translation of his main treatise on judicial astrology will be available soon ? movement is afoot on this). It?s not sensible to assume that the pinprick of translations we do get access to is representative of what Lilly had access to, and I cannot see that it?s significant that Lilly?s 17th century contemporaries failed to mention it, because none of their works were as comprehensive as Lilly?s was on the topic of horary.

This is a not an argument in support of the consideration BTW, just a response on why I don?t think that Lilly would have invented it. I can however see the logic, in that the Moon is generally considered to be most detrimented in these three signs ? it?s affliction in Gemini is widely reported because it is the 12th sign from the Moon?s own; in Capricorn the Moon is in detriment and in Scorpio it is in fall. Then at the ends of these signs it falls into the terms of the malefics, compounding the debility.

I can however see the logic, in that the Moon is generally considered to be most detrimented in these three signs ? it?s affliction in Gemini is widely reported because it is the 12th sign from the Moon?s own; in Capricorn the Moon is in detriment and in Scorpio it is in fall. Then at the ends of these signs it falls into the terms of the malefics, compounding the debility.

And it's precisely for this reason that I would usually avoid pursuing a chart that had any one of these configurations, (although I would still probably try to pick around in the chart to see 'why'). I have rarely seen a chart with one that turned out well, or turned out at all! There's something very unstable about late degree moons, and in the dark of a late Capricorn moon I would be disinclined to trust the judgment, mine or anyone else's!

Sorry, perhaps I should have put my point in a new thread. Its a long way from Minnie's original question.

Thanks for that Deb. Yes Lilly certainly had an impressive library of Arabic and Latin sources we don't necessarily have ready translations of.
If I was ever going to give any astrologer the benefit of the doubt it would certainly be Lilly. His thousands of consultations gave him the perfect opportunity to test astrological theory in practice.

As for your disagreements with Maurice I will keep out of that until I can voice an informed opinion. I personally love Maurice McCann's writings but I have noticed he does like to stir up traditional assumptions with some controversial ideas. I am intrigued you think Bonatti was relying on older sources in his considerations before judgement. Again I will let the experts slug that one out!

Great news on the Al-Kindi translation! The only english translation I am aware of up to now is his 'On Stellar Rays' ( trans Robert Zoller) which I believe is more philosophical in nature.

I can see the logic for the emphasis on Scorpio and Capricorn. Lilly appears to have agreed with Morin (or visa-versa) in seeing Gemini as the next weakest sign for the placement of the Moon for the reason you state.

I was not seeking to invalidate your viewpoint Archergirl. I was just trying to explore my own view on this. Perhaps more actual chart analysis and less theorising might help me out here.

However, my understanding of a consideration before judgement is a bit different from you. I note you use Barbara Watters term 'stricture against judgement' indicating these are rules meaning these charts shouldn't be read. As I see it though a consideration is just that. A factor an astrologer should consider before going ahead to make a judgement. Clearly, if you have early/late degrees rising, VOC Moon or combust significator you are getting some heavy hints from the cosmos! Still, I can see circumstances where I would still go ahead and offer judgement on such a chart.

Mark