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13 by ###
If this if from Rob Hand then I would think he has extracted these words from the Ancient texts he has studied and translated from Latin. He had 2 co-horts working with him here...
Rob Hand was well read and already had an extensive astrological background and career before Project Hindsight, so he could have come across this idea years ago. But it looks like this just might have been a confusion between Hand and Pelletier on Yikkes! part. ..(?)...

The Ancients believed the 7th House led to the 'portals of the 8th - a most unfortunate house'.
I?ve heard of them calling the 7th the Portals of Death because of the western horizon and its ancient and widespread association with death. I can?t really see them going from the 7th to the 8th . That seems backwards for the ancients. Modern astrologers do it all the time, but they focus on the secondary zodiacal motion of the planets and the order of the house numbers rather than on the primary diurnal motion of the sky.

14 by Tom
Interested Readers might want to read my post that follows this one before investing too much time here

I think you're missing my point.
So drop the word ?crisis? and change it to ?a difficult period in one?s life when intense and possibly dangerous issues must be faced?, or some such thing. Pop psychologists don?t own the idea. A traditional astrologer can talk about a crisis just as well as a modern astrologer. It?s the language of the current age. In any case, it looks like Hand is off the hook.
"Crisis" when referring to an emotional state is something that a modern, not a traditional astrologer would associate with Sun in the 8th. It doesn't matter if anyone else uses the word in this way or not. Phrases like"mid life crises," feelings of inferiority," "mother issues," etc are the stuff of pop psychology and psychological astrology not the stuff of Vetius Valens. A crisis in mid life smacks of pop psychology not traditional astrology.

Sun (life force) in the 8th (death) is a pretty obvious delineation. Sun in the 8th = crisis is not. The choice of word is something we are more likely to find in I'm OK; You're OK than we are in Christian Astrology. In other words "a crisis in middle age" are nothing more than buzz words. If I'm wrong one or more citations from traditional texts should settle the issue.

The other giveaway is that the condition of the Sun is not mentioned. Sun in exaltation in the 8th is a whole lot different than Sun in fall in the 8th to a traditional astrologer. These differences are not mentioned in modern cookbooks.
Traditional astrology indicates that near your middle age a crisis will rear its head in your life.
Let's start at the beginning. It doesn't matter who said this. The question is where does the idea of Sun in the 8th house indicating a mid life crises come from? In other words, does it mean this and if so, why?

Did the idea originate with traditional astrologers, i.e. those who practiced astrology before the arbitrary cut-off date of 1700? I say 'no." I've never come across anything like this in any of the traditional works as defined above that I've read. This is the sort of thing one would expect to find in the work of modern astrologers, i.e. references to "crises" in the life without specifying the nature of the crises. Ibn Ezra does not care about your mid-life crisis. Noel Tyl might.

Phrases like "The Sun in the 8th house means ..." are not often, if at all, found in the traditional texts. Things like that are found in modern texts.

Don?t forget that the 8th house meaning of ?Fears? goes way, way back, so the house has carried an inner, psychological element for a long time. Therefore, the 8th can indicate a confrontation with something threatening that changes life for the chart native and creates a ?before? and ?after?.
This is quite true. There is a lot more psychology in traditional astrology than meets the eye, but fear is not the same thing as crisis. Still your point is valid, but why the Sun? Why not the Moon?
Those things would all be signified by the appropriate houses and planets.


Exactly, Which is why I am having trouble with the idea of Sun in the 8th is a general warning of crises but the specific crises are located elsewhere in the chart. OK maybe I'm wrong. If so there should be a philosophical reason for making this general prediction. For the same of simplicity let's put the Sun in the 8th 45 degrees from both the MC and DSC. Moving the Sun to an angle regardless of how we do it is indicative of something important in the life. I originally guessed progressed Sun to the MC indicated a crisis, and now I wish I hadn't. The symbolism there is more akin to honors than to crises. The philosophical reason given in the thread is Sun setting or moving by primary direction (traditional) to the DSC. But I still have a problem with this as is just as likely to pertain to a partner or an enemy than it is a crisis. The possible symbolic significance is an opposition to the ASC.

As to whom should be credited/blamed for this I did a bit of checking. I dug my my crumbling copy of Horoscope Symbols and Planets in Houses (Pelletier). I found nothing in either book that made this claim or anything like it keeping in mind the usual caveat that I could have missed it. I also checked Sakoian and Acker's Book The Astrologer's Handbook. Same result. And I checked Luke Broughton's The Elements of Astrology. Nothing there either. I didn't find anything by Pelletier at astro.com

But I do have one "success to report. I checked my 1984 edition of the A to Z Horoscope Maker and Delineator and found something similar. A single, unexplained sentence on page 302
Taken alone [i.e. not considering strength or aspects - the Sun in the 8th - tc]: about the forty-fifth year may be a critical period.
Llewellyn George was long dead by the time this edition came out, but this text is more in line with late 19th early 20th century astrology than it is with contemporary astrology. So our mystery author did not simply make this up.

To summarize:

Q: Did Rob Hand or Robert Pelletier make the statement under discussion?
A: We don't know; Yikkes isn't talking, and it doesn't matter.

Q: Does the Sun in the 8th mean a mid life crisis in traditional astrology?
A: Not if we define traditional astrology as pre-1700 astrology. Admittedly the idea of a setting Sun has some merit.

Q: Is this quote something that is more likely to be found in modern work?
A: Yes, but I only found one definitive reference. All the others didn't mention anything like this.

Will Yikkes come forward with some kind of clarification?

???????

Tom
Last edited by Tom on Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

15 by Tom
After spending all that time on a clarification, I picked up an astrology book and found a traditional reason why the Sun in the 8th could well mean some kind of mid life crisis. The book is John Worsdale's (1766 - 1828?) Celestial Philosophy. On page 41 he gives the following chart data. It is not necessary to cast the chart to follow this reasoning, but I thought I'd give it anyway.

Female
June 28, 1767
5:32 PM LMT
Lincoln, England.

Solar Fire gives a chart pretty close to Worsdale's calculations. The Sun is on the 8th cusp in Cancer. Now Worsdale, as traditional astrologers do, uses the whole chart and does not dwell on the Sun in the 8th. In fact he spends more time on the ASC ruler Jupiter, in Virgo as an indicator of poor health particularly since Mercury, Jupiter's dispositor, is besieged by the Sun and Mars and is combust.

Worsdale, whose confidence in his skills and the art makes Morinus look diffident, lists the various ailments and brushes with death the native endures during her life. Here is the quote that caught my eye:

Aged forty-one years and ten months, she wsnot expected to survive the effects of an intermitting (sic) fever which attacked her with unusual violence, during several week; this direction at that time produced several other calamities and troubles. The Ascendant at that period was directed to the opposition of the Sun.page 54 emphasis added
This sounds like a crisis of a physical nature, despite the fact that the Sun does not rule the ASC except by triplicity. But the ASC, the body, is directed to the opposition of the life force. The opposition, in traditional astrology, is the most difficult aspect.

Everyone with the Sun in the 8th will experience this direction between the ages roughly of 40 and 50 depending on where in the 8th house the Sun is located. This then is a traditional indication that Sun in the 8th signifies a crises at what is considered mid life in 2007. It seems to meet the criteria of the quote quite nicely. The direction will occur at mid life and it will occur at a later age if the Sun is in the 9th and earlier if the Sun is in the 7th. Other factors in the chart should concur.

Nice job Mr. Worsdale

Tom

17 by ###
Ok, here is what I wrote before Tom?s discovery. I?ll go ahead and submit it anyway.

..............................................................................................................................................
This is the sort of thing one would expect to find in the work of modern astrologers, i.e. references to "crises" in the life without specifying the nature of the crises. Ibn Ezra does not care about your mid-life crisis. Noel Tyl might.
Here?s the original quote:
"Traditional astrology indicates that near your middle age a crisis will rear its head in your life. If this period is successfully spanned you can expect a prolonged life with a gradual heightening vitality. "

It just says ?a crisis?. We have to be careful to not make it the equivalent of a pop-psychology ?mid-life crisis?. And if crisis still sounds too modern ? well, the person who wrote that doesn?t speak in the language of pre-1700 astrology. It could be a modern reworking of an idea from a centuries-old text: ?A grievous time?.
There is a lot more psychology in traditional astrology than meets the eye, but fear is not the same thing as crisis.
I would say that a gripping and crippling fear makes for a pretty good crisis, and it doesn?t seem to be too much of a stretch to find crippling fear in the house that traditionally carried meanings of both Fear and Death. As you say, there is plenty of psychology in traditional astrology. That?s why it?s so interesting that they put Fear into the same house as Death.

But you?re right ? why the Sun and not the Moon? It may have to do with the diurnal motion as I mentioned. The Sun heading toward setting means the end of day, but the Moon heading toward setting does not mean the end of night. The Moon was said to sometimes be favorable in the 8th. Possibly in a nocturnal sign and a nocturnal chart, I forget. Also, the 8th is in an occidental quadrant of the chart ? more Moon-friendly. And the Sun is more of a vitality principle (with the Moon rather as ?embodiment?). When it?s in a house that doesn?t aspect the Ascendant there might be a ?disconnect? of sort, a lack of energy flow. Some ideas, anyway.

My 8th edition of A to Z has the same sentence [followed by more text, not a solitary sentence], so we can go back to 1943. Should we just call that traditional and rest there?


....................................................................................................................................


Here's my post-discovery contribution:
Everyone with the Sun in the 8th will experience this direction between the ages roughly of 40 and 50 depending on where in the 8th house the Sun is located. This then is a traditional indication that Sun in the 8th signifies a crises at what is considered mid life in 2007. It seems to meet the criteria of the quote quite nicely. The direction will occur at mid life and it will occur at a later age if the Sun is in the 9th and earlier if the Sun is in the 7th.
Oh dear, directions. Could someone please write a book about primary directions and give us the guaranteed one-and-only way to calculate them so life could become easier?

Using Solar Fire, the direction that matches the directed Asc. opposed natal Sun in the 8th of Worsdale?s ill lady is converse primary mundane, which was exact at 41 years 2 months. (I thought non-converse was the way to go). Using the same method I?ve come up with some ages when other chart native?s experienced the same direction of Asc opposed 8th house Sun. As you will see the ages are so varied as to make it questionable as to whether this is a mid-life issue. The size of the 1st house is a factor, as is the Sun?s location in the 8th. All ages listed are for the exact hit of the direction. All are Placidus houses.


The following have the Sun within 5 degrees of the 8th cusp, on the 8th house side of the cusp:
1. 38 years, 8 months
2. 42 years, 0 months
3. 37 years, 6 months
4. 42 years, 9 months
5. 31 years, 1 month
6. 39 years, 1 month
7. 23 years, 6 months
8. 35 years, 11 months
9. 26 years, 1 month
10. 24 years, 11 months

The following have the Sun place in the mid or late 8th house, but not within 5 degrees of the 9th cusp:
1. 65 years, 10 months
2. 58 years, 6 months
3. 50 years, 0 months
4. 46 years, 1 month
5. 63 years, 5 months
6. 54 years, 10 months
7. 47 years, 5 months
8. 45 years, 2 months
9. 58 years, 1 month
10. 45 years, 1 month

You can see that they range from 23 years 6 months to 65 years 10 months, so we can?t really talk of a mid-life issue. There is too wide an inclusion of adult years, especially in the northern latitudes of Worsdale?s (or anyone?s) England. Until the extended life spans of the last century or so, this could be said to happen anywhere from young adulthood to old age.

By the way, in the chart of the hit at 65 years and 10 months the Sun was still 15 degrees away from the 9th house cusp!

18 by Tom
I was going to write about Worsdale but I think I'll handle or try to the directions issue first. Yes, Kirk is correct, there are a variety of ways to calculate and use primary directions and many of the major authorities used different ones. The differences, however produced differences in hit dates from months to years at the end of life. To a modern this might seem significant, but it was less so to a traditional author. From my reading I've found that those who used primary directions did not use them the way modern astrologers use transits, i.e. the event or incident associated with the direction occurs on or close to the hit date.

Morin, a strong advocate of primary directions, in Book 23 of AG discussing the solar return of King Adolphus of Sweden notes the King was "under the influence of a direction that year" (quote may not be exact). In other words the hit date, which is not mentioned, is not all that important. What was important was the broad effect of a direction that occurs within a particular year. And for this reason whether we use Regiomontanus or Placidus or Ptolemy's method of directing it is not all that critical. Using the same chart the hits will occur roughly the same time. Directions are not explosions.

Directing the angles is a bit more curious. True when we direct planets, we do so clockwise according to diurnal motion. There are two ways to direct, in zodiac and in mundo. From what I've read when the traditional authors directed the angles in zodiac meaning they directed in the direction of the zodiac which is counterclockwise and they considered this a "direct" direction, not a converse. Worsdale used converse directions. Morin ridiculed them, but he directed the angles in zodiac, i.e. counter clockwise

Directing the angles is a problem in that the ASC and the MC do not move. The planets and the zodiac move over those points in diurnal motion. For this reason, I believe, Rumen Kolev, who knows primary directions as well as anyone in the world, does not offer directions of the angles in his extensive primary direction program.

I figured out what kind of directions were calculated by Solar Fire, and then promptly forgot it. Even using identical methods from the identical chart, a modern computer will produce somewhat different results than hand calculations that were dependent on sometimes dubious tables.

All traditionalists who used primary directions claimed they had it right and anyone who disagreed had it wrong. All traditionalists said that about everything. Worsdale is no exception. But like I said I think if we try to use primaries like transits we miss the point. If the Sun is within the eighth house and the native lives long enough, at some point the ASC will be directed to the opposition of the Sun. If the Sun is on the 8th cusp it will occur a lot sooner than it will if the Sun is on the 9th cusp. Depending on a lot of things, the opposition may fall during a period that is considered prior to mid-life or after mid-life. The term mid life is a bit vague anyway. We wouldn't put someone in their late 20s or early thirties in that category or someone in their early 60s in that category, but most people who have the Sun in the 8th will experience that direction at a time that passes for mid life in the 20th and 21st centuries.

The delineation quoted was broad and these things are not intended to be taken to occur in all cases. The word crisis is so broad that it can be taken to mean anything from a woman not on speaking terms with her sister to having one's house burn down. It is in fact whatever the native wants it to mean. In astrology a contact between the ASC and the Sun is important. An opposition is a negative or at least very difficult, and contacting a planet particularly the Sun in the 8th increases the difficulty. It makes sense that this is the source of the quote, whether the author realized it or not. It also makes sense that a modern astrologer might make the statement without realizing its source and therefore doesn't cite the reason.

Kirk's edition of A to Z contains more than mine does. I have the sentence I quoted then it goes into causes of death. I think the older versions of that text are the better ones.

Worsdale:

I quoted Worsdale not to show that he agrees with the blurb we are discussing, but rather to show that an almost certain primary direction to an 8th house Sun might be the source of that broad statement. It makes more sense to me than the setting Sun scenario.

Worsdale doesn't get a lot of ink possibly because his work was post 1700 and the book Celestial Philosophy's 2nd edition came out when 19th century astrology was about to have a significant impact. The other reason might be that Worsdale's text is obsessed with horrible violent deaths and insidious diseases. There is no "You're more sensitive than most people realize" in his stuff.

Worsdale must have been a workaholic. His method was to take every direction, direct and converse, progression, transit, etc arrange the hits in chronological order to about age 75 then look for clusters of celestial events that occur in a particular time and delineate from that. I wouldn't want to do all that with a computer. He would, however always delineate the nativity first then relate the developing events from that. He does mention one case of a man who lived a normal life, incurred the usual ups and downs and died from natural causes at an appropriate age. He practically apologizes for including it. Gentle reader, let's get back to the sickly and children kicked to death by horses, or perhaps burned alive, if you please.

But Worsdale is a fine astrologer despite his macabre avocation. He is well worth reading and studying. If you're not going to sit down and work with his charts, don't waste your money. You won't get anything out of it.

I have the reproduction published by Ascella. I believe there is a reprint available through Kessinger publishing.

Tom

19 by ###
Tom,

You gave me a lot of good info concerning primaries. And the bit on Worsdale was great ? I?m becoming very interested in the few and obscure astrologers between the 17th and late 19th centuries. He must have been relatively solitary. Or maybe there were more practicing astrologers than is commonly thought ? they just kept to themselves and didn?t publish much. [I see you wrote more on him before I posted this ? I?m looking forward to reading it.]

If we direct the planets in mundo clockwise, and if Kolev has good reason to have nothing to do with directing angles, then why can?t we direct the Sun to the Descendant to get our ?crisis?? In doing so we get another powerful Sun-Asc. opposition. One could argue that a 9th house Sun would be just as likely to have the ?crisis?, but a 9th house Sun starts out in its joy and doesn?t have the ?built in? weakness and affliction that a natal 8th house Sun has. Also, the 9th house Sun would tend to reach the Desc. at around the normal death age for those earlier times with shorter life spans. A simple direction of the Sun to the Desc. (opposed the natal Asc.) sounds more vigorous and directly powerful than moving the angles around.

I suppose I?m about done with this.

20 by Tom
then why can?t we direct the Sun to the Descendant to get our ?crisis??
We can. It is my personal opinion that it doesn't quite fit what the author of the quote that started all this had to say. It is true that descending planets are not in as good a condition as those that are ascending, so there is a fit with the direction or progression to the DSC. The problem I have with that is that the crisis in mid life referred to would then take place when the Sun is angular. However the direction of something to the radical 8th house Sun seems to fit the symbolism better - again in my opinion. Obviously I can't say for certain why someone would believe Sun in the 8th indicates a crisis in mid life unless they tell us, so it is a case of one educated guess is as good as another.

Tom

22 by Ellie Fant
You all got me wondering about this delineation:

"Traditional astrology indicates that near your middle age a crisis will rear its head in your life. If this period is successfully spanned you can expect a prolonged life with a gradual heightening vitality."

It just didn't sound like Rob Hand, for all the reasons expounded through your posts. And it isn't Hand!

I tracked it down to Robert Pelletier's "Personal Portrait" on astro.com.

But the dialogue to come out of this has been fascinating. I was racking my brains trying to think what would trigger a crisis in middle-age for an 8th house Sun. I could only think of some direction which brought the descendant to conjunct the natal Sun, but as you have all pointed out this doesn't mean a crisis. And an opposition to the Asc. makes more sense in terms of a threat to one's vitality.
Now I wonder what Robert Pelletier was thinking when he wrote that.

23 by woodwater
i have sun ,venus and mars exalted in 8 in hellenic and equal house system and my dad passed away when i was 21,but i know many with such charts who didnt lose their dads.
I had a mid life experience when i nearly got bitten by a snake in Australia. Given the relaxed attitude of the Aussies down there to it all ?no worries mate, you could have died, but shit happens? i realised that life is meaningless.

signs in houses 8,6, and 12 and 2 have nothing in common with the rising sign , yet im surprised inconjunctions and dodeciles are seen as minor aspects, and dont understand why house 12 is bad but house 2 isnt.
have you read Julian Lee`s astrocartography site? He talks a lot about that

Mid Life Crisis

24 by Julie K
[I had a mid life experience when i nearly got bitten by a snake in Australia. Given the relaxed attitude of the Aussies down there to it all ?no worries mate, you could have died, but shit happens? i realised that life is meaningless.]

woodwater,

I do apologise for the rampant's snakes behavior while you were here but you may have been in his territory perhaps? Was Mars and/or Neptune in Scorpio at the time?

I can look at the Astrocartograpy of your mid life crisis event if you wish to appease you?

Julie K
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