Thanks Ficina,

Yes, favourites are the ascendant, therefore radical favours the ascendant and if you follow that logic, then colours that indicate the favourite has to be the descendant has no logic.

ManU favourites , so the ascendant.

I acknowledge the point that they are separate issues, I think my thought is that radical/favourite/ascendant are not separate and so the colour approach has to be separate from radical considerations.

A chart is not radical, the favourite is the ascendant. Subject to practical parameters on radical charts/types of radical charts then the consideration is that radicality issues move it away from the favourite, rather than the colour moving the favourite to the descendant.

I said

POF trine its dispositor, the Sun which favours the fave. But Sun is also L1, Boro, unless we give the Asc to the faves.

I've just remembered that JF said if POF dispositor is L1 or L7, then forget its role as POF dispositor. Boro are 2-1 up! Plenty of time though...

Middlesbrough - ManU 2-2 , April 6. 12.30 GMT

I didn't have the time to look at the chart, but you seem to have had an interesting discussion. The game started in the hour of Mars with a Leo ascendant. The chart is proven radical in two ways by the Lord of the Hr sharing the same powers as the Ascendant and the same powers as the Lord of Asc., ie. warm and dry.

1) When the chart is proven radical due to the agreement of powers between the lord of the hour and the sign on the ascendant, I choose to call the lord of the hour the 'control' planet because the ascendant is proven radical within the powers of the lord of the hour.
2) When the ascendant is proven radical due to the sympathy between the powers of the Lord of the Hr and the Lord of the Ascendant, then the the 'control' is handed back to the Lord of the Ascendant, because radicality is not granted without his participation.

I don't know whether in the case above, in the Hr of Mars with Leo rising, we have a two way deal - but for some reason I always gave precedence to condition no. 2 and handed the control back to the Lord of the ascendant, who is the Sun. But where the is a 2-way deal, in the similar way as radicality by triplicity likes to share things around, I think we should note this draw. A triplicity is very much like a trine and I note that in Ficina's 1-1 draw between Arstenal and Liverpool yesterday, Mercury, who was lord of the hour, aspected the ascendant by trine.

I think there is a mix of testimonies, because it seems in hindsight that 'Brough managed to hold the ascendant. However, Fortuna represents the favourite [Points made by Ficinia]. The trine between POF and L1 seems to have gone neither way and just balanced the whole thing off.

Thanks for that, Andrew.
I was secretly hoping the match between Mboro and ManU would be posponed due to snow or frozen pitch or something becuase the chart was radical and there was the trine between Mboro's sig(the Sun) and POF. I'd forgtton JF's POF and its dispositor(have to look for it in the book). Very disappointed

John
What I think is that the colour method and the one using radicality are two different methods and we can't mix them.

radical favours the favourites - not necessarily signified by the Asc.

The way I see is that if the chart is radical, it favours the AC becuase of the reason I gave in the radicality thread:

the idea that initiating event at the time not 'right' for the AC is a disadvantage for them; that the project not likely to proceed in their favour.

Ficina
Great call again, gettin both win and score right

Thanks, Gem. It was just the usual - planets crossing angles. Simple stuff really and great when it works Well done to John who also went for Everton. Just for the record the result was 1-0.

Sorry about ManU. Boro can be a tricky team and ManU seem to be having defensive problems with Vidic out etc.

The way I see is that if the chart is radical, it favours the AC becuase of the reason I gave in the radicality thread:
Quote:
the idea that initiating event at the time not 'right' for the AC is a disadvantage for them; that the project not likely to proceed in their favour.

Who do you mean when you say "them"? Andrew's always said that it moves the result away from the favourites, not the Asc

Well done to John who also went for Everton. Just for the record the result was 1-0.

You got the score right again, Ficina!!

Andrew's always said that it (radicality) moves the result away from the favourites, not the Asc.

That's is the theory.
A radical chart might save the favourite from loosing, even if other testimonies are going against them. A non-radical chart may prevent the favourite from winning, although everything else seems to be going for them.

Stoke City - Crystal Palace
07-04-2008 19:00 GMT

ASC=20Lib11'

Chart is radical.

Stoke City is on ASC as home team and favorite.

L1=VE -12 (cadent, under beams, in begin of detriment sign)
L7=MA +10

POS (13SCO) oppose MOON (11TAU)

But:
L10 is strong
antiPOF conj VE

It is may be a draw because of MOON applying to a malefic (MARS)
and MOON's dispositor is under sun beams.
Also radicality says favorite take game seriously (?)

So I hope draw or Crystal to win

I agree it looks good for Crystal Palace. Moon sextile Mars (L7) and opp POF/POS. Also agree Stoke get Asc although colour method would probably give them Desc (red/white).

Crystal Palace are 1 up after 23 minutes!!
Way to go!!

Palace now 2 up! They're also wearing red and white

3 Cheers for UBER, although I'm not sure I understand it right away. I had got a slightly later asc for Stoke - 21LI25, on the exaltation degree of Saturn, with the degree of Mars' fall, 28CN14 on the MC. This is a warning of trouble - but the chart is radical with Venus, lady of the hour, ruling the ascendant. The slightly later asc gave me POF/POS at 14SC04, which seemed slightly wide the opposition to the Moon at 11TA02.

And yet, UBER got it right!! Venus, LHr, is detriment and cadent, but that should not have any effect on the rules - unless you take Venus as significator of the favourite

I notice it is the Day of the Moon, aswell! Now that is interesting, because there is a natural agreement between the Lady of the Day and Lady of the hour, since they are of the same powers. This would make it easier for them to trade positions. Then additionally, the Moon is dignified in the sign of Venus - it is easy to see the sympathy. Could this be a case where the Lady of the Day comes out from the back office and takes over for her agent, who is unfit to perform?

POF/POS closest aspect is trine dispositor Mars 13CN50, who is L7 and would be a testimony for Palace. Not forgetting Moon, L10, applying sextile her dispositor, Mars, L7, as pointed out by Ficinia - which is probably the most convincing testimony! Yes, I think that explains it!

Well done, UBER! This was most interesting

I have Asc 20,12 Libra, MC 27,12 Cancer, POF/POS 12,54 Scorpio. There were two clear testimonies for Palace (underdogs) and none for Stoke. Excellent result!
Stoke 1 - 2 Palace