And since I put this in to the bottom of the reply to kirk I thought I'd pull it out since I disagree completely as to who is what in that arguement. And frankly Astrology is the Most SAturnian of Saturnian things in my opinion, for it has outlasted many, many many other things, G

repeat:
the pull against the status quo is common, how it occurs is not necessarily so common. chaos (uranus) in end cycle (pisces) verses authority (saturn) in agricutlure or well planned community (virgo) gives way Chaos in War (aries) verses authority in Law (libra) I think that in this case Saturn represents the upcoming generation and Uranus the waring tribes of the agrarian past that are slipping (one can hope) in their own blood into the past. Saturn is Exalted in Libra after all. And the world has been filled with nasty petty skirmishes in the last 50 years, lets hope we can stamp them out with a bit of practical thought.

Granny
(hopeless romantic)

From Ms. Granny:

and I still say, YOU are the one giving credit, instead of looking at the suggestions objectively and offering yoru own perspective on the proposed prediction.

I took my cue from the byline and "published". It's kind of, well, right there.


From someone else:

This Saturn/Uranus opposition is just the first of several important configurations of the outer planets to come in the years ahead. Uranus' transit towards Aries and Saturn's transit towards Libra along with the entry of Pluto into Capricorn later this month all point to very significant global events in the next decade. Many new ideas are now emerging that will put to rest some of the outdated 20th century structure modes which have caused so much damage in the world economy.

The series of Saturn-Uranus oppositions possibly will make for powerful changes, but Saturn entering Libra and Uranus entering Aries ? so what? I suppose those ingresses will have some effect on the collective with their Libra and Aries themes, but causing "very significant global events" simply by their presence in those signs? Let's be accurate: those aren't configurations, but merely zodiacal placements. And why are so many people trembling over Pluto in Capricorn and the great world changes it will supposedly bring? Why should Pluto in Capricorn be so significant and such an earth-shaking change from Pluto in Sagittarius? Yes, yes, then comes Pluto in Aquarius, which will surely be interpreted as the fulfillment of the Aquarian age. Blah, blah, blah ... It all provides folks with the chance of being a prophet for the world. Unimpressive, simplistic astrology.

Who needs astrology for these predictions of upcoming major changes? People who have nothing to do with astrology, crystals, channeling, or communication with extra-terrestrials are saying the same things. After decades of rapid change in technology and media, the development of an instant computerized global economy with unreal money, a near consensus in the scientific community on human-induced climate change, and irresponsible spending (debt) by governments and individuals, it is now apparent to most of us that things have gone too far too fast for us to continue in the same manner. It's obvious that we need to make major changes. No one needs folks who know a bit of astrology to point it out. In fact, those astrological guru wannabes are following rather than predicting and leading; for some time now they've been reacting to what they see around them rather than predicting from what they see in the planetary positions.

Hi - I guess if we wish to consider Saturn - Uranus we could start in the here and now
The original discovery of Uranus followed on from the seminal works of Adam Smith and others laying the foundation for Free Market economics and Capitalism and we now seem to be in a phase where these free market models are being called into doubt and there is an ever increasing desire to regulate . The era of unbridled Capitalism has perhaps come to an end ? has it run into the buffers?? this all seems very much like Saturn's grappling with Uranus
mike c

The original discovery of Uranus followed on from the seminal works of Adam Smith and others laying the foundation for Free Market economics and Capitalism and we now seem to be in a phase where these free market models are being called into doubt and there is an ever increasing desire to regulate . The era of unbridled Capitalism has perhaps come to an end ? has it run into the buffers?? this all seems very much like Saturn's grappling with Uranus

Saturn and Uranus were opposed in 1873-1875, 1918-1920, and 1965- early 1967. These all seem to be within periods of overall increase for capitalism rather than times of limits to capitalism. During the first period the US was nearly a decade out of the Civil War, railroads crossed the continent, and the big industrialists in banking, steel and oil were getting established*. Industry and empire were growing in Britain. The second series of oppositions was the beginning of the boom and big money of the 1920s. The third series was during a time of protests and social upheaval, but corporations were becoming huge and going global. So why would the Saturn-Uranus opposition now be a time of limits for capitalism? Once again, I see this as chiefly a reaction to current events and a criticism of modern society rather than any sort of analysis that requires, needs or properly uses astrology.



*I wasn't too sure about associating the oil industry with the 1873-1875 series of Saturn-Uranus oppositions since it was so far in advance of the automobile industry. I found this interesting bit in The American Heritage Encyclopedia of American History (1998) under 'Standard Oil Trust (1882)':

? ... organization formed by John D. Rockefeller to control the petroleum industry. Rockefeller formed the Standard Oil Company in 1870 and developed every aspect of the industry, from transporting crude oil to marketing the final product. He cut deals with the railroads, used pools to crush rivals, and controlled 90 percent of the county's oil-refining capacity by 1879. To consolidate his business interests more efficiently, he established the Standard Oil Trust in 1882. More effective and permanent than pools, the trust legally centralized control over different companies by setting up one board of trustees to run them. Rockefeller's stockholders exchanged their stock for trust certificates, which allowed Standard Oil Trust to integrate the petroleum industry vertically by controlling everything from production to local retailing, and horizontally by merging competing oil companies into one giant system.?

So there we have two popular villains of the current age ? shareholders and the oil industry ? becoming stronger during and after the Saturn-Uranus opposition series of 1873-1875. But limits were eventually hit:

?The company became a model of corporate consolidation and an object of social criticism. In 1892, the Supreme Court of Ohio ordered Standard Oil Trust dissolved because it restrained trade. Rockefeller reorganized it as a holding company, Standard Oil of New Jersey, which broke up after an antitrust suit in 1911.?

We've had two more complete series of Saturn-Uranus oppositions since 1911, and shareholders and the oil industry are bigger and more powerful than ever.

MikeCoop wrote:Hi - I guess if we wish to consider Saturn - Uranus we could start in the here and now
The original discovery of Uranus followed on from the seminal works of Adam Smith and others laying the foundation for Free Market economics and Capitalism and we now seem to be in a phase where these free market models are being called into doubt and there is an ever increasing desire to regulate . The era of unbridled Capitalism has perhaps come to an end ? has it run into the buffers?? this all seems very much like Saturn's grappling with Uranus
mike c

It very well could be Mike. From my review of Uranus' transit just before crossing the vernal equinox point of 0-Aries, such as in the 1920s, we've seen some very similiar kinds of wild economic speculation that then led to a "barren" time in the 1930s, as Uranus made transit through Aries for about seven years.

Uranus transits on a flat area of outer space called the "orbital plane." This orbital plane lies close to Earth's own orbital plane, so Uranus always transits about the same area of Earth's skyview. Because of Uranus' very odd tilt, one pole of the planet points nearly direct at the Sun during half of Uranus? 84-year orbital cycle, while the other pole points toward the Sun during the second half. This is a 42-year-long season of lightness or darkness on each end of the planet.

In very obscure mundane astrological writings, it is said that as Uranus' transits, the long decades of "light" or "darkness" on either side of the planet also reflect energies of "light" or "darkness" and the influences on us here on Earth. With Uranus now in tropical Pisces and in opposition to Saturn in Virgo, we are seeing the 6th and 12th Mundane houses hiighlighted: reflecting issues of the working classes, public health, food, hunger, the armed forces, and those of institutions, hospitals, crime, secret enemies, etc. The opposition of Saturn/Uranus plays out on the Virgo/Pisces axis which is mutable, and therefore seeks to "release" pent-up energies through channels.

The first expression of the world's public mutable "release" takes place in the November 4th U.S. elections. There remainder of the oppositions from November 2008 to the year 2011 will seek more "releases" of public anger worldwide expressed through a wide variety of ways ~ mainly with a focus on economics, the workplace, the working masses, the health of the masses, and in other areas ruled by the 6th & 12 Mundane Houses. The Saturn-Uranus transit also calls for major reforms. I expect to see many reforms announced in 2009, worked on in 2010, and initiated by the year 2011, just before Saturn and Uranus enters the Signs of Libra and Aries.

Saturn's transit in Virgo signifies a powerful repressed feeling among the working classes globally. The transit of Saturn in this Sign has powerful effect, as Virgo is strongly associated with the United States, and particularly with Washington D.C., which is very rich in astrological lore and geography where Virgo is highlighted. Saturn's transit towards the western equinox point of Libra reflects a "change in laws" to come by the early 2010s. Strong expressions of "justice" and what is "right" and "wrong" will be featured globally as Saturn transits Libra in 2010, 2011 and 2012.

Libra, is also a "barren" mundane air sign, and with Saturn's transit, we should see powerful expressions to right what is considered to be wrong in the early 2010s, with old laws updated, brought back, reformed and re-issued as new laws to express the outlook of a new generation coming into power worldwide.

We will see another era of "reforms" and "regulations" to breakup large Trusts and oil conpanies. The next American president will most likely have to be a mix of Theodore Roosevelt and FDR ~ balancing a capitalism friendly "break up the trusts" perspective; while also offering the working classes a economic "new deal." The world transits to come show that this is the most successful path for national leaders to take considering the amount of resentment and backlash over many years of rampant greed and financial corruption.

Uranus is in a "rich" Sign, Pisces. However, it is heading towards a "barren" sign, Aries, by 2011, and will transit there for seven years. Some of my advanced climate and weather outlooks are for increased droughts, and drier than normal climate conditions during most of Uranus' transit through tropical Aries. In mundane areas, we will see increased rouge military events taken by some nations with a potential breakdown of unity among nations.

This has happened before with Uranus in Aries during the 1930s. Much of this was brought on by the worldwide Depression of that era, also influenced by Uranus' transit in the barren sign of Aries. Uranus' entry into Aries by 2011 also sees rebellion, and impulsiveness, which is often a Aries feature. The opposite pole is "balance" "fairness" and "justice" as reflected by Libra, and this is where Saturn is heading. The Saturn-Uranus opposition is not just an ongoing series of events along the Virgo/Pisces axis, but is also a warning about the coming of their transits along the Aries/Libra axis in the early 2010s.

The astrologer Antero Alli says on Uranus ~

"If Uranus could talk, it would probably wisecrack: "The truth will set you free, but first it may make you miserable." Textbook astrology tells us that Uranus is "the freedom planet," yet what do we mean by freedom? The urge for freedom pulsates strongest in the hearts of slaves and prisoners. But we are all oppressed in some way, and it can be quite a shock to wake up to this. The shock of oppression can sometimes incite sudden and disruptive reactions - knee-jerk reflexes of revolt against the perceived oppressor. However, if our aggression merely compounds the oppression, nobody is liberated; we are bound to what we resist. Though anger can vitalize action, true freedom requires hard knowledge of precisely what is oppressing us before we can do anything about it.

Freedom, as I refer to it, is a natural state; if we remove oppression, an innate autonomy prevails. This kind of freedom can be shocking at first. How much true freedom can you live with? The house that Uranus is transiting represents an area where we are starting to face a certain kind of oppression; some of this is culturally conditioned, and some is self-imposed. As Uranus transits the 3rd house, we enter an era of "wake-up calls" to patterns of oppression embedded in the ways we use (and are used by) language: how we think, speak, write, and interpret experiences.

Third house transits coincide with (but do not cause) shocks of intellectual oppression and freedom. Yes, oppression can be just as shocking as freedom. We might discover ways of talking that ring false, or we may register shock at our inability to tell the truth. Perhaps, we are suddenly appalled by the oppression of free speech in a society originally founded on principles of freedom that it no longer adheres to. And that realization alone may be enough to incite riots of passion for Telling the Truth in Public Places.

There is an astrological principle that refers to Uranus as an overtone function of Mercury. If Mercury represents the mundane intellect used to solve everyday survival problems, to make sense of the world, and to communicate among ourselves, I think it's logical to assume that Uranus symbolizes a higher intellectual function enabling us to figure out how intelligence itself can be increased or accelerated. This intelligence oriented to "post-survival" doesn't directly advance our egos, or our personal survival, yet it intuitively serves the transpersonal cause of increasing species intelligence. How do we increase species intelligence? This is a big question demanding an even bigger response-ability.

It's a rude awakening to recognize how species stupidity (more than personal stupidity or anything else) is the greatest cause of oppression on the Earth. Once we awaken to this dreadful enlightenment, we are forced to decide whether to wise up or become part of the problem. Uranus transits don't automatically increase intelligence. It's more likely that Uranus transits coincide with the exposure of an unmet transpersonal need to face oppression and awaken to our innate autonomy. We are all more free than we realize. Meeting that need increases species intelligence.

Transitting Uranus aspecting natal planets can also signify unexpected accelerations in that area of our life. When Uranus conjuncts Venus, relationships jump onto the fast track. We discover how free or smothered we are. The degree of disruption and chaos that ensues during Uranus to Venus transits may be a measure of an oppressive or liberating love; the greater the oppression, the greater the chaos that follows. Uranus transits can also coincide with times of stimulating experimentation. We might discover a second chance to reinvent ourselves in an area previously over-regimented by tyranny - our own or someone else's."

Economics and capitalism will continue to exist in my astrological estimate; however, what we are seeing is a coming rejection of what is called "free trade" as it has been practiced over, say, the last 28 years, and especially the last eight or so years. The Saturn-Uranus opposition is bringing this to the surface, with emotionally-charged Virgo/Pisces expressions throughout the world.

The chart for Wall Street posted by MorningSun on this forum will see strong aspects to the exchange's Dragons' Head and Tail on the Libra/Aries axis. The progressed Lunar Nodes are on the Virgo/Pisces axis and already feeling the Saturn-Uranus opposition. The dissolution of trillions of dollars of capital that is ongoing will have great consequences for the future, and Saturn and Uranus are major players here. They will continue to be major players, along with the transits of Mars, Jupiter and Pluto as we head into the next decade of the 2010s.

The third series was during a time of protests and social upheaval, but corporations were becoming huge and going global. So why would the Saturn-Uranus opposition now be a time of limits for capitalism?

Hi Kirk I think in Theo's response there is some relevant stuff that answers that criticism - Saturn is opposing from Virgo, ie our modern way of producing and consuming , our modern harvest - and the free flow of these commodities, has reached a crisis point. That was not the case in those earlier oppositions. Indeed the last time the Saturn Uranus opposition was in Virgo was in the 10th Century AD!!

Its noticeable that the modern free trading and economic systems really kicked in and went global through the 60's with Uranus's transit of Virgo, so I guess I was really thinking of limitations in that way rather than some imagined death of Capitalism .
mike c

hi again - it also occurs to me that the 1960's saw the Saturn - Uranus opposition reversed ie saturn opposed from Pisces. So on one hand we had a crisis in belief which led to people seeking new ways of expressing those beliefs and on the other that existential crisis led to the movement towards unlimited consumption and production to give more meaning and shape to the modern world.
mike c

This is a very difficult thread to moderate. For one thing there seems to be two separate conversations going on at once ? one about the content of Theo?s original post, the other about the style of it. Since everyone has had their say now, hopefully from this point on the discussion will remain centred on the theme of the Saturn-Uranus opposition.

There have been several references to previous Saturn-Uranus oppositions, but no one has mentioned the preceding Saturn-Uranus conjunction which occurred around the boundary of Sagittarius and Capricorn between 1987 and 1989. Theo, in your first post you talk about the position of Uranus in relation to its 84 year cycle of crossing the Vernal equinox, but surely it is more relevant in this event, to see the opposition of the planets in relation to their preceding conjunction, and to consider this aspect as the most dynamic and open expression of that seed event?

I remember the Saturn-Uranus conjunction of the late 1980s being a major theme in astrological discussions and journals of that time. There are two events that I particularly remember being associated with the Saturn-Uranus conjunction:

• 1) The ?black Monday? stock market crash of 19 October 1987 ? the effects of which were felt worldwide and which at that time was the greatest single-day loss that Wall Street had ever suffered in continuous trading. This was significantly foreshadowed in the UK by the ?Great Storm? which hit 2 days earlier, the worst storm to hit the south of England since 1703, (it destroyed over 15 million trees and killed 18 people). Although the crash and the storm were dramatic and landed suddenly, the market had been tumbling and the October weather had been particularly bad since the start of the month. At the time of the storm Saturn was at 17 Sagittarius, moving into its conjunction with Uranus at 23 Sagittarius. A significant theme was that there was a close trine between Uranus and Jupiter (at 24 Aries), with the Sun at 22 Libra applying to the sextile of Uranus and the opposition of Jupiter. The Moon in Leo, moved to the square of Mercury (the traditional ruler of winds) and the trine of Saturn, creating a grand trine in fire for the event. At the time of the crash the Sun, at 25 Libra was just leaving its opposition of Jupiter and the Moon in Virgo was squaring Saturn.
  
  More on the storm - http://www.stvincent.ac.uk/Resources/We ... oct87.html
  More on the crash - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_mark ... sh_of_1987
  
  2)The major political event associated with the Saturn-Uranus conjunction was the collapse of communism, so perfectly symbolized by the destruction of the Berlin wall. The wall ?fell? on 9th Nov 1989, (with Saturn-Jupiter within a degree of opposition), but the political movement to break it down had been going on for most of that year, with the first removal of border restrictions in August (with Uranus-Jupiter within a degree of opposition), and Saturn retrograding back towards its recent conjunction with Uranus.

Given the events and political themes of this planetary cycle?s conjunction, it is not surprising that we witness similar repetitions at its opposition. This whole period is marked out as being sensitive to the themes of storms and crashes, metaphorically as well as physically. But this is only a background influence and its obvious expression is always going to be tied into its connections with other planets. It was appropriate for astrologers of 1989 to see the Saturn-Uranus conjunction as reflective of the collapse of communism, but astrologically, Jupiter was integrally bound to the sense of liberation associated with the fall, just as it was integrally bound to the financial crash that accompanied the overly-exaggerated market confidence that preceded the Black Monday crash. We can all predict storms and crashes and disruptions, because these are always going on somewhere around the world, but during this particular period I think we have good reason to expect that they will be significant.

Deb wrote:The major political event associated with the Saturn-Uranus conjunction was the collapse of communism, so perfectly symbolized by the destruction of the Berlin wall. The wall ?fell? on 9th Nov 1989, (with Saturn-Jupiter within a degree of opposition).

That's an interesting point, Deb.
The Saturn-Jupiter opposition was more closely jointed to Neptune at 10 Capricorn, which was exact on Nov.12. I think at the time this was associated with both the desolving of the Wall and the Fall of Communism. At the same time as the Wall was torn down in Berlin, they were building a wall with holes in it around oil-platforms in the North Sea to protect installations from a predicted 100-year wave. Both walls were porous in their own sense.

I find myself dwelling upon the strange occurance of that if the young Barack were to inheret the Head Office of the US (albeit by election), his Grandmother dying on the day prior to this event. A generation change may prove to accompany a change of administrations. (SA opp UR).

I wanted to point out that in 1873 there was a collaps of the Austrian Stock Exchange that caused what was called the "long depression" which affected most of the world, including North america and Europe, took a bit of searching.

Second I looked at all three of the Opposition Tranits and found an ongoing theme of Sufferage, Racism, and Workers Rights, as well as anti war and anti alcohol themes. worth a look,

(Temperance, and prohibition and drunk driving all big in these era's, as well as Civil Rights laws being written and enacted at these times)

Also every one of the three transits seems to have begun with a Ship sinking.

still researching.

Granny

It's important to keep in mind that the current Saturn-Uranus opposition is softened by the fact that it occurs in Virgo-Pisces. The Mutable signs are already signs of change, flexibility and moving on to another state of being and doing, so they are naturals at dealing with conflicting views and interests. Bicorporeal signs are bound to have at least some innate understanding of oppositions. An opposition in the action-initiating Cardinal signs ? signs that see something they want and head for it ? would be more 'hot under the collar'. Oppositions in the preserving and enduring fixed signs, especially involving Uranus, could potentially be the most dangerous and disruptive when the status quo is finally breached and the pressure is released.

I would imagine that the current opposition is also toned down by the fact that Virgo and Pisces are both cold signs. An opposition in Gemini and Sagittarius, warm Mutable signs, would seem to pick up the pace a bit more. An opposition in Virgo-Pisces seems about as adaptable, bending and unfocused, and as little driven, little explosive, little forceful or dangerous as it gets.

An opposition is still an opposition, but this one doesn't feel to me like it has as much force and potential for disruptive conflict and difficult change behind it as commonly stated. Conflict and change, yes, just much more toned down and less powerful than many are saying.

In the discussion about US election, the Saturn Uranus opposition was mentioned many times and what striked me the most was the lack of consistency in the interpretation of this configuration.

I won?t name the horses, but many astrologers made public a total disregard for the historical part of this hystorical cycle. Some claimed that the opposition was the cause of events distant 3 to 4 years of the actual configuration.

The only texts that I know of that treat the subject with seriety is from Andre Barbault. He claims that the cycles can be divided between the ones of neptune (socialistic) and Uranus (capitalistic).

Jupiter-Neptune would be "liberal socialism" (I am just trying to give an idea here), and is linked to civil rights movements around the globe.

Saturn-Neptune would be "socialistic fascism" and is linked to movements of extreme left, violent revolutions, gulags, berlim?s wall, etc.

Jupiter-Uranus wuold be "progressive capitalism" and is linked to technological conquers, raise in salaries, profits and GNP.

SAturn-uranus (finally) would be linked to "capitalistic fascism" with movements of extreme right, controling of people?s liberties, oppression of workers, etc.

The conjunction would be "thesis", and now in the opposition we would have the "antithesis" of the original thesis. The current conjunction were in effect around 1988, so now we should be seeing, acc. to Barbault, the conflicts against the ideology born in that moment.