matt23z wrote:One of the first puzzles I encountered with astrology was that successful people often had a packed doom & gloom 12th house. I am not the only one to have have seen this.

No, you're not! I'm into statistical research, and the emphasis with the 12th house is something you encounter frequently with actors, pop stars and other similar (quite visible!) people.

matt23z wrote:At a recent Ben Dykes talk he looked at the etymology of the various words for angle like Kentron and whatever the arabic for tent pole is and seemed to suggest (like Robert Hand talking about cusp meaning centre point) that the angles could be seen as middles not beginnings.This is only my understanding and inference but a lady in the audience pointed out that one Indian house system(bhava madhya) does use angles as middles.

This is true, this system is called Sripati or Hindu Bhava houses in various astrology programs. This house system uses Porphyry cusps, but puts the border between two houses not on the cusp but on the midpoint of two cusps. I would be very interested to see a programmer providing an opportunity to do the same with any cuspal system you choose. How interesting that Ben Dykes has suggested the cusps being actually the high point of a house.

Sorry, this was a bit off from the mystery chart in question. But I agree that a full-packed 12th house here doesn't necessary indicate a life spent in jail or isolation. The person's life might in fact have been quite public.

Sari

Well, first of all, I don?t think that a 12th house is the main factor in being "famous". There are several, and nowadays, I think that the most perversions the person has, more often they will be famous. So, they are famous because of their 12th house scandals.


But whatever reality show or political propagand made them famous, the 12th house Has tio manifest someway, or we are doing modern astrology. Bush was a drug addicted (drinking problem and maybe cocaine), Madonna is very self destructive, and god knows what blair hides in his closet. In each case 12th house manifested, so to start to say in the middle of the way, that the system of houses is wrong, because a people with a loaded 12th house is famous, well it seems to me a stretch and a detour.

Besides that, since the greeks there were already a rule that saturn in the 12th would give victory agains enemies. Meaning that we know from a long time that the 12th can be useful, same way the "poison can be useful to the doctor"

Tom wrote

?..what does this say about our understanding of the 12th? If it is the house of troubles, slavery, secrets, treachery, illness, confinement, imprisonment, etc, why would we find a prominent 12th in so many public figures? Is our understanding at least partly wrong?

For my part, I have given up some of the negative connotations of H12. I adopted the findings of Gauquelin that H12 is a diurnal sector which gives a planet special strength. My experience with chart readings confirms that. (The Mars Effect, http://www.theoryofastrology.com/gauque ... effect.htm )

Just imagine what happens at sunrise. The sun appears from the dark. The rising of a planet or star at night is a special moment. Not to mention how important all this was to the ancient Egyptians and Babylonians (Heliacal Rise).

H12 is rather a place where something appears FROM the dark and comes to light. Like fresh morning dew if you think of sunrise.

Ren?

But Saturn is not doing much here,unless you count the sextile to Uranus in libra. I hope I will not be deemed guilty of hi-jacking this thread by making it a debate about the 12th house though.

Matt

Regarding the 12th place, I don't think we have to go to the devil's math (aka statistics ) for any special answers. It was known as the Place of the Evil Daimon; many a sociopathic or neurotic person has, by the very nature of their inner conflicts, a certain charisma and drive about them. They'd still have a guiding spirit, it just would be like this . (The usual caveats applying, of course: Not everyone with a heavy 12th is crazy, etc. etc)

I would agree that all these planets in the 12th are afflicted, but I don't think we can say that they can't do anything, just that they have trouble guiding the manifestation of their particular significations.

Looking at the 12th as the place of personal enemies, we could see that this is a man with many and varied enemies: kings and great men (Sun), the common people (Moon), lawyers and probably contentious religious people (Mercury, with its lordship of the 9th), and women (Venus).

I hope I will not be deemed guilty of hi-jacking this thread by making it a debate about the 12th house though.

I think this is a very useful discussion given the chart and that the discussion applies to other charts. We may get more involved when the native is revealed.

I don't think we have to go to the devil's math (aka statistics) for any special answers.

Devil's math - I love it.

Tom

Hi, GR, I liked "devil?s math".

Sasha said that he might be a healer, but this chart don?t "feel" like a doctor to me, but I only have read a few charts or professionals of medicine, so I can?t rule it out.

Moon rules the MC and is both cadent and combusted, two factor that shows "invisibility". Again it shows that he does something "under the shadows". If he is not hidden in a cave, it can show activities that he wants to be hidden.

Looking at the chart, I am more inclined now to judge mars as the profession ruler... mars is in his own sign, in the second house, and conjunct jupiter, exaltation lord of the MC. Jupiter beholds the MC and is not cadent and combusted, like the moon. Janeg already did a good delineation of the mars/mercury aspect in this chart, as well as conj. with jupiter. So, he probably had talents of both mercury (dispositor of a lot of planets, including sun and the ruler of theMC) and mars. Hmmm, a business man ?

Sasha said that he might be a healer, but this chart don?t "feel" like a doctor to me, but I only have read a few charts or professionals of medicine, so I can?t rule it out.

I was definitely wrong, and I admit it without hesitation.
The relation between Mercury and Mars conjunct Jupiter in 2 house is a good indication for a profession linked to money.

Thanks, Tom and Yuzuru. "Devil's Math" does have a nice ring to it, and it does show just how tricky it is, especially when it appears to be applied to astrology, where it doesn't really apply at all, IMO.

Never mind "Devil's Math" there was a British Prime Minister who said there are "Lies,damn lies and statistics". Having said that I came across Gauquelin before I came across trad astrology so I do appreciate looking at Sari's work in this field.

I have tried assessing the native's job using Maternus Book 7 XXVI.
He is not Al Jolson but Mars in the anafora of POF sextile Mercury means he will be good Physician(surgeon?) barber or iron or fire worker.I had a hard time understanding it so I hope I have got that right. If he made money therefore it must have been in the coal or steel industries.

Matt

I just want to congratulate Steven for his accurate analysis of the mystery chart - great job, and it shows clearly to which extent the traditional astrology is capable of giving clear, unambiguous information about someone's life.