13 by Tom Steve, My comments were aimed at what you stated was the "misconception" that traditionalists held regarding Fagan's work. Traditionalists don't have much to say about Fagan because he was not a traditionalist. We don't spend a lot of time discussing 20th century astrologers except from time to time in order to make fun of them My objection is to the glittering generality about traditionalists - not to Fagan's work about which I know very little. My second comment was again aimed at what I believe is an unsupportable statement, to wit, that solar and lunar returns were the chief predictive techniques of "ancient" astrologers. I doubted that because of a lack of accurate tables and wondered about the overall accuracy of the attempts at such calculations. This of course begs the question of which "ancients" we're talking about. If we're going to make such statements at least there should be an effort to document them beyond noting a "rigorous pursuit of historical evidence." My understanding is that although there is, according to Robert Hand, a single reference to solar returns in Hellenistic astrology, solar returns or revolutions are primarily the work of medieval Arab astrologers notably Abu Mashar. From that point, they were taken up by Renaissance astrologers like Cardan and from there post Renaissance astrologers like Gadbury and Morin. Whether one agrees or disagrees with Fagan or Eshelman is pretty much beside the point. You put a lot of effort into your post and I think it would make a fine thread over on the Nativities forum. Tom Quote Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:41 pm
14 by Tom Eddy, Since this is the books forum I thought I'd mention Morin's Book 25, which I just started, in light of what you wrote. Morin had this idea that the native was somehow "infused" with the characteristics described by his chart at his birth. Those things collectively known as the "promise " of the chart were either "activated" by duplication of what was in the nativity in the solar return or inhibited by reversal of what was in the nativity. The lunar return further timed the events by duplicating the solar return and/or the nativity, and transits triggered the event. It's a neat theory, but the argument is over whether or not it works. Although the error in the Rudolphine tables didn't often result in huge errors in the solar returns, they could produce some way off lunar returns. Then in book 25 he turns his attention to "Universal" astrology or what we would call mundane astrology. In all cases the planets in the signs give off their influence the same way indifferent to what receives that influence. But that influence is received differently by different individuals and locations. Locations, however, receive the influence more generally. If the pipes break in my house and flood my basement, this is shown in my chart. If the dam bursts and every house in two square miles has flooded basements this would be shown in the more general or mundane chart. In the first case the culprit(s) triggered something in my chart alone. In the second case the culprits triggered a more general chart or ingress. Then Morin goes on to make his case splendidly with charts that are a minimum of 3 hours off. So Eddy, you aren't going to do any better with mundane astrology. I studied Morin's work in book 23 on returns and the principles are sound even if the charts are off. I think that's the best we can do when appealing to our astrological ancestors who had the poor sense of timing to be born in a world without computers. Tom Quote Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:20 am
15 by yuzuru I think the book by Louis is completely over-hyped. To member that are into modern astrology, I would recommend Solar Returns, formulas & analysis by Nance McCullough http://www.astroamerica.com/text/solarreturn.html A very interesting work. She uses the outers as rulers of scorpio, aquarius and pisces, but she also has a predictive approach and some insights that I think are very worthed, specially because other "gurus" seem to have copied her without proper acknowledgment's. To members interested in the traditional approach, I would recommend a book that is usually overlooked but I found very interesting: A collection of nativities by Gadbury. Gadbury gives very quick interpretation of several charts, combining directions with solar returns. No theory, just his remarks. Y[/url] Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com Quote Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:33 am
16 by Eddy Tom wrote:I studied Morin's work in book 23 on returns and the principles are sound even if the charts are off. I think that's the best we can do when appealing to our astrological ancestors who had the poor sense of timing to be born in a world without computers. Tom Thanks Tom, I wonder if Morin checked his prediction with the 'real' results. Perhaps the charts that were 'off' the most would have less accurate predictions. Quote Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:36 pm
17 by Tom Some of the charts are farther off than others. I could jiggle the time and place a bit and get a solar return chart that was very close to the one published. Lunar returns are another story. Some of them were close enough where the error in calculation didn't affect the delineation. Others were so far off that in order to work with them I had to copy them by hand on to a blank chart (I will never get the hang of square charts). Still I was after the principles employed not the accuracy of the charts. Keep in mind none of these were predictions. They were examples of events easily checked. I checked some of them when I could. All the ingress charts in book 25 are off by about three hours according to the translator James Holden. Quote Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:28 pm
18 by Tom Some of the charts are farther off than others. I could jiggle the time and place a bit and get a solar return chart that was very close to the one published. Lunar returns are another story. Some of them were close enough where the error in calculation didn't affect the delineation. Others were so far off that in order to work with them I had to copy them by hand on to a blank chart (I will never get the hang of square charts). Still I was after the principles employed not the accuracy of the charts. Keep in mind none of these were predictions. They were examples of events easily checked. I checked some of them when I could. All the ingress charts in book 25 are off by about three hours according to the translator James Holden. Quote Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:28 pm