We have to determine the condition of the Car. The context of the question restricts us to use 1st and 2nd house for the Car. Its a buying and selling query. I am only left with experimenting with 3rd and 4th house.

3rd House:

Cancer (South Node) --Moon (11H)

South Node in 3rd house. Moon separates from conjunction of detrimented slow Venus.


4th House:

Leo 25 deg---Sun in Pisces

Saturn Rx Virgo in 4th house and a little bit in antiscia relationship with Venus (L1)

Sun in Pisces. No recent separation to indicate something happening

I am sorry, i am weak in colour mixing. It seems that both houses are relevant. Help me

Hi PD, please don't forget that we are judging this just from two different perspectives: you as the asker who knows the outcome and all the details of the deal, and me as the astrologer who has delineated the horary without this knowledge. So, in the first place, my task is more difficult, therefore we don't need to turn this into some form of a "battle", neither a "quiz" - and there're other reasons for that to. I gave my reasons why I think the deal went through (and it did if I got you right?), and that's pretty obvious in this case, even without assigning the car to any specific house. As Yuzuru suggested in one of his articles in his blog (see his link to his blog site), we don't always need to complicate issues around the houses. Here, we have obvious links between the 1st and 7th and that suffices - at least for you since you asked the question with the perfect knowledge of the car's condition. You were only interested in whether the car would be sold, and for what price, right? You knew that the car is damaged. (I stand by my view that the 3rd describes this condition better then the 2nd, but you as the asker could leave this part out, right?) As for whether the deal would go through, here the 2nd for the car works just as well as the 3rd does, because all the planets are connected ie apply to each other. The Moon is the 3rd ruler but it also shows the course of events, so it has a double role here (as it does in all other horaries where it is a significator of something or someone), and as such it connects the 1st with the 2nd and 7th - and 3rd. And, as I (humorously, but at the same time seriously) suggested in my article, cars to be sold sit on the cusp between the 2nd and 3rd houses , so at least here there's no disagreement, right? My feeling is that the heavens are smarter then us, you see, therefore they seem to "choose" the time for asking such questions when there're proper indications in both the 2nd and 3rd houses. Whereas if you'd sincerely ask a question regrading the condition of a car you'd be buying, for example, that would, I repeat, show in the 3rd. Best, Ema.

Hi STJ, you wrote:

This Horary is either

First House (reference might be Lilly and Ayub Taji book)
Second House (reference John Frawley)
Third House (reference Ema-her article)
Fourth House (the system and practise used in my country)

I would just like to remind you that the "idea" that cars belong to the 3rd cars is not mine but that it has been the general "choice" of nearly all the 20th century western horary astrologers (who posted examples of this in various books and magazines), with the exemption of John Frawley and his followers. One very notable astrologer defending this view was my teacher Olivia Barclay (who was also John Frawley's teacher) who's written an article on cars too, see here http://qhdc.org/barclay/car.htm
Best, Ema

Hi Ema,

Rest assured- this is still a quiz and will remain so.The reason I put a link to your article was because it was another view, and relevant to the question.Your discussion was forceful ,the humor was not lost one me and to me it did not minimize the import of what you had to say.

I agree that condition of the car was not a part of the question as it is already known to the seller.The seller knows what he is selling and that is why his condition is precarious. As for the 2nd or 3rd, I am open to both but leaning towards the 2nd; the third is indeed intimately linked.

BTW Who was that horary astrologer who had upset Olivia so much

Cheers

PD

PD:

I wish that the question should have been

What is the colour and condition of my colour? It would have made much easier for us to see which house actually rules the Car (though we need more horaries to reach the conclusion)

Ema:

I belong from Pakistan. I have read a lot about Olivia Barclay. She has been inspiration to many current good Horary Astrologers. She must have been a very lively and energetic lady. Unfortunately her book "Horary Astrology: re-discovered" (which i have in my possession) failed to have any impression on me. So, instead of referring her, i referred your article. Even Lee Lehman mentions First House for cars. But again her book so heavily relies on Lilly (and more especially on Gadbury) that its better to look for an original book. I may not agree with some of the points raised by John Frawley, but he seems more original and in his OWN colours. Your article was very interesting. And you established solid basis for assigning 3rd house to Cars. Any way i have to rely on my own experience. Nobody has asked me a Car horary. I hope that 'PD' would come with further ideas, so that we could agree on something.

Two years ago, i conducted an experiment in my village. My cousins repeatedly hid their things and i was made to search the objects so hidden. The experimented established that the thing pruposely hidden is found from the 1st house and its lord. Maybe due to the fact that things were hidden on purpose and there was no emotional reason (urgency) on the part of the Querent to find them.

Hi Syed, you from Pakistan? How nice, I wish I could see your country once in my life!!! I admire the great countryside you have. As for Olivia's book: I never stop wondering at its quality, you know; she gives facts, no nonsense there. Follow her line after line, take it seriously and you won't miss. I have been turning to it over and over again, all through these long years of studying astrology, and have found that nearly every word she says stands there for a reason. The book proves that it is a product of long years of experience. Alas, one can appreciate this only after one has read so much nonsensical stuff in so many other books, and once he or she has gained experience. JF's book is quite different from Olivia's. Lots of style and wit, but apart from the literature value there's not much new there, and it seems (to me) that it's much less instructional and useful then Olivia's book. There are some new ideas in JF's book but unfortunatley he only has some 7 example charts and even those (or nearly all of them) do not "prove" any of his original ideas (except the one which proves his antiscion theory), which can also be misleading to someone who relies solely upon his writings - I'm speaking of the receptions chapters etc.. Don't understand me wrongly, it's still a good book and I believe that newbies find much useful material and lessons there, it's a traditional horary book after all. But in general, apart from the literature value, I was not impressed. I'll stop here, not to change the subject of this thread Ema.

Ema:

I live in Pakistan. You are most welcome. Be my guest.

About Olivia Barclay's book. Yes, i wonder, she has been an inspiration to many good Horary Astrologers, however her book is bit dry stuff plus she has not covered the material in detail.

Maashallah and Abu Maashar have visited me in dream several times with some horrible stuff in their hands and have asked me about the address of JF. His ideas regarding receptions are contradictory and are loosely based on emplacement. If some one is introduced to traditional and horary astrology for the first time in life through his books, he is bound to be confused for the rest of his life. Thanks God, I had been adequately warned.

There is something i wish that current Horary Astrologers should take particular note of. Firstly, no doubt CA ranks as all time top ten 10 Horary Text Book, but Horary existed before Lilly's times. What we seriously miss in our current approach is the Tajik or persian way of doing horaries. Secondly, a book where an author heavily relies and quotes ancient sources is a very boring book. Study all the books and all the theories but write the book based solely on your own experiences (special reference to Lee Lehman's book)

It seems that 3rd house has been more relevant in 'PD' quiz. But his query is basically 1-7 & 2-8 horary. I wish that some one posts a horary in which we can use houses numbered 1 to 4 for the description of vehicle. Like what is the colour and condition of my Car?[/quote]

Ema, I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed your article ("Which House Rules Cars?"). Very fun, entertaining, and educational. Thanks!

Hi All,

The outcome was as follows:

The car was sold by 2PM same day.
The price was a midway compromise.
Metallic silver colour, dents to body from crash and reversing.
Low mileage,good engine,damaged body, lapsed registration and no road safety certificate.

In all likelihood it was the engine and low mileage that got the car sold.

Thanks for getting involved.
I think it was the Mercury seperating from Venus to apply to Mars was the key.Remember,venus was behind mars and slowing down so would not have perfected otherwise.That is just my opinion.

PD

Hi PD, thanks for the outcome. I'm glad I got the time right, I said the car would be sold some 3 hours after the question was asked (see my 1st post) and so it was, by 2 pm as you say (question asked at 11:04 am.) Price was negotiated, as I also suggested it would be. Now, there's the thing called "translation of light" in horary, that's what made the deal possible, as I also explained in my post, so there's no need to see a direct application of 1st to 7th. Moon connects. It's one of the main ways of "perfection of the matter".

Carol THANKS I'm glad you liked the article, your response is much appreciated :-)

STJ, I can see the air is much clearer in your country than here :-) I wish some ancient astrologer would visit me in my dreams But maybe he does and I'm not aware )) There's the idea for you, write an article about the Tajik or Persian way of doing horaries, I think we'd love to learn about that!!! Best, Ema.

Thanks Ema,

The problem I have is the 3rd also deals with communication,documents as well.So, in a modern day transaction of a car, it is very unlikely that the third is not involved.This car did not have all the documents,the buyer was a company advertised on the Internet buying second hand cars, they do not have a local office here, but 80 miles from here, and someone from the head office travelled to this place to buy it.This is further complicated by the 3rd lord being moon which is a co-signifactor of the querent.Everything about the querent wasn't very encouraging either- Venus in detriment going retro and Moon peregrine.

The car had much more serious damage than moon suggests and it is better reflected in Venus but, that is a minor point as the condition of the car was not the question.

I will ask another question when I buy a new car but I am not sure if the third and the second can be separated in any transaction of possessions involving documentation.

PD

Hi PD you said:

The car had much more serious damage than moon suggests and it is better reflected in Venus but, that is a minor point as the condition of the car was not the question.

Exactly! A horary answers just what we ask of it. It would be unreasonable to expect that it will show us all the details connected with the whole situation around it. The "unfortunate" 1st house indications (Venus) shows you, your state of mind and your stance in this situation: you were uneasy because you knew the car was damaged. But your question was not "how seriously is my car damaged"; you knew that well enough, so why expect that the chart will show that in any other way? (Of course, the house ie planet showing a damaged car cannot be "perfect" but on the other hand, if that's not the core of the question, doesn't need to be really "horrible"). Your question was: will I sell it to this buyer, and will I receive the money I want? That's what your real interest was when you asked the question, right? That bit about the quality of the car was added later! It was not part of your original question. So, since the 1st (you) and the 7th (the buyer) were connected by the Moon's translation of light, the deal was made. In 3 hours, as the distance from the Moon to Mars (the buyer) suggests. And you did get the money (Moon appl. by sextile to Mercury first), although less than expected, which is (IMO) shown by retro Saturn (lowering of the price). That's my view of it, my answer in the 1st post was based on these observations, and thanks again for this interesting example! Ema.