There is a thing called 'Mutual application'.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=pzaP ... t&resnum=4


PD

Frankly gutted that my timing was so wrong - I followed all the rules!!! I guess the application in 11 minutes simply meant 11 days or so. Still, according to Masha'allah's timing stuff it shoulda been months later. I really feel disheartened by astrology sometimes. The Sept-Oct start thing made no sense? Like, you didn't start working with students then, semester didn't start then or something? I clutch at straws.

However! Has nobody else noticed the collection of light that Jupiter does here? The last planet to aspect Jup was the Moon (Lord 10). The next planet to aspect it, applying at the time of the Q., is Venus (Lord 1). (Even though the Moon went on to aspect Mars and separates from him at time of the Q., as far as Jupiter's concerned she's left her calling card with him.) Fait accompli, no?

Like, you didn't start working with students then, semester didn't start then or something?

Not that I remember. Semester was already in progress by then.

Don?t feel discouraged, if astrology were so straightforward, humans would have too much power on this earth.

But I would change mine expectations if I were you. Don?t expect a straight answer (3 months). Expect tentative answer, that should be adapted to the reality of the question. (if the question was made in june, and the semester begins in july-august, to say that I would be hired in september would be the same as saying that I wouldn?t be hired at all, agree?

It is the same as if you were asking "at what time will the plumber arrive" and you say to your wife "in three days"- The correct answer should have been "the plumber will not arrive today, let?s go do something else"

Thanks Yuzuru - good advice. I still think it should be possible to arrive at a more accurate timing - in this case, in hindsight (bleurgh) maybe it was the 11 minutes = days (getting the job), and the 120 days of Masha'allah's technique (degrees between Lord 1 & final dispositor Jupiter, = time of starting the job) can be brought forward somewhat because both planets apply to each other. But as you said, the context of the question does supply the timeframe.

MarcosP wrote:
However! Has nobody else noticed the collection of light that Jupiter does here? The last planet to aspect Jup was the Moon (Lord 10). The next planet to aspect it, applying at the time of the Q., is Venus (Lord 1).

Hi Marcos,

as far to my knowledge collection of light is only after the question (in contrast to translation of light). At the time of the question both significators have to be in application to the collecting planet .

Johannes

Hmmmmmm. Not to diss your considerable knowledge Johannes, but that isn't quite logical. I've not seen anything in traditional sources saying that a Collection of Light can't be effected by a planet if one of the lighter planets is already separated from it at the time of the chart, so long as the lighter planet was the last to apply to the would-be Collector, and the other lighter planet makes the next application to it. That'd be a bit like presuming the world doesn't begin until you're born (or the question is 'born', in horary) e.g. dad puts some money in a trust for your sister before you're born/question is asked; she picks it up a couple of years/weeks later. This could be represented by a Collection of Light: where Moon as Lord 4 is separating from Jupiter as Lord 8, and Mercury as Lord 3 applies to Lord 8. Or whatever.

I know it's not a traditional source, but I quote John Frawley (Horary Textbook, p.93):

"It is theoretically possible that we could have a collection where one of the significators has already made its aspect with the collecting planet (I have already been put in detention; all that remains is for the belle of the school to incur the headmaster's wrath [and be put in detention too]). I cannot recall having seen this in a chart, but do be aware of the possibility".

I know the Masha'allah technique does confirm that Yuzuru got the job, but I can't see any other valid way of linking Lord 10 & Lord 1 in that chart- and there really should be a direct link between Lords 1 & 10, or the outcome would've been (as some suggested) a job, but not the job initially sought by the querent. Plus it makes sense that Jupiter (Lord 3 in a double-bodied sign = more than one interview/communication, natural ruler of University/higher ed) would be the planet to link the two.

Else we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one!!

Hi Marcos,

the quotation you give, is an exception. Even Frawley states 'theoretically possible' he 'cannot recall having seen this' it is in his words a mere 'possibility'.

Abu Ma'shar, The Abbreviation of the Introduction to Astrology (Burnett-Translation), Chapter Tree, [25], page 24:
" 'Collection' is if two or more planets apply to one planet: then it collects their light and receives their natures."

Ibn Ezra, The Beginning of Wisdom (Epstein-Translation), p. 121:
"Collection [of Light] is when two or more planets join with one planet, so that heavier planet takes it all."

John Frawley, The Horary Textbook, p. 93 (the rule of the exception you quoted!!!):
"The two significators both apply to aspect a third, slower planet."

That'd be a bit like presuming the world doesn't begin until you're born (or the question is 'born', in horary)

The course of the world is one thing, horary rules are another - the time of the question IS the decisive moment.

Hi Marcos,

in addition to my posting of yesterday night I should like to reference this article of Graeme Tobyn:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/tobyn2.html

Altogether I have to admit that it is just now not so easy for me to find definitions of the collection of light as I was convinced to.

But here is another - Al Biruni, The Book of Instruction . . . , (Wrigth-Translation), p. 87:
"510. Substitutes for Conjunction and Aspect. . . When an inferior planet and an intermediate one both apply themselves to a superior planet, the latter . . . assembles the light of the others."

Also this definition clearly repeats the application of the significators as a condition for the collection of light.

Johannes

I agree with Johannes. Collection of light and translation of light are specific details within the larger principle of rendering, or rendition of light. What we are talking about at a theoretical level is whether there is the prospect of an effect occuring which involves the transmission of influence through a 3rd party, even though this doesn't fit the criteria of collection. Yes, there is - it might be a valid transmission of light and it can be termed as such if you feel it is valid, and brought into your interpretation without the need to call it collection. You would need a secondary indication of perfection to back this up though, because it is not very strong in its own right.

...I was so determined to put my point across I posted it twice. Doh

ok, well this is showing up the gaps in my technical knowledge. I got my definitions of Collection and Translation from Frawley's Horary textbook. I haven't done the quantity of background reading or research that some of the people on this forum have yet. As I understood it, Collection is where a heavier planet collects the light of two lighter planets, i.e. both aspect it, one after the other; Translation involves a lighter planet moving between two heavier ones, introducing one to the other.

I know there are other technical doohickeys resembling these transfers/communications between planets with lots of other names, and I will learn them all eventually, once I get through the stack of books I'm currently picking my way through at a snail's pace. But I still think that in this instance, where the Moon (Lord 10) aspected Jupiter (Lord 3) prior to the Q, and the next planet to aspect Jupiter was the querent's significator (Lord 1), then Jupiter, as a heavier planet, effectively unites the two. Whether this is called a Collection of Light or a Celestial Badger of Doom makes no odds - it's what's going on in this chart. (Although I quite like my Celestial Badger. Can I make him official?) Also as I said, Jupiter in Sag as Lord 3 did unite the two - multiple interviews at University. In any case the deciding factor for my Yes was on the basis of Jupiter being the final dispositor in the Masha'allah system of receptions, so perfecting it; but in my view there would still need to be something in the chart uniting Lord 10 & Lord 1 or the Moon, or I'd've thought Yuzuru would still get a job (good outcome), but not the one he applied for (what with Jupiter not being Lord 10 and that strong Mars on the 7th being a potential problem). There's nothing else I can see which would do that, and that was the basis for my yes (as I put in the original response to the test).

Yes I know I'm stubborn!

PPS Thanks for the link to Graeme's article Johannes. I did glimpse it on this site a few days back, but twas so lengthy and technical I only got a little way in before I decided I'd need to come back and find it later to absorb it properly (I was at work and had prescriptions to fill, besides). So hopefully I'll get my definitions right in future Deb, once I've taken notes on that, without needing to create new ones! (But if a term for a pre-query CoL doesn't exist, I'm sticking with CBoD).