13 by Mark Hi Olivia, You ever actually been to Canada? I've been to Edinburgh, used to live there. Agree, it's north. So is here. Sorry I misread your email and you clearly type faster than I can! I had already edited my previous post so this will not make much sense to anyone else now. I thought you were some urbanite in Vancouver BC or Toronto but I see that is not the case. I have heard of the 49th Parallel. I have even seen the movie! However, in the context of our discussion I thought it was your location in latitude. Sorry. Thanks for your insights by the way. I wish I could discount this issue as a problem in the way you do but I confess it does bother me a lot. Last edited by Mark on Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:41 pm, edited 2 times in total. As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:06 pm
14 by ### Even the most northerly town in the continental USA (Danforth Maine) is only at only 45'66N. Mark, Don't let map distortions fool you! Maine is quite far south. Here in Portland, Oregon I'm at 45? 32' with the whole of Washington state to my north. Quote Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:16 pm
15 by Mark Thanks Kirk, Nothing to do with map reading though. Careless web browsing I am afraid.... Still, we seen to have established the whole of the continental USA is below a latitude of 50N. Mark As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:26 pm
16 by Martin Gansten However, it seems evident that someone born close to the equator in a location like Nairobi is likely to have a quadrant chart with broadly evenly shaped houses while someone in Reykjavik is likely to find more unequal houses. Is this acceptable? Clearly for some it is and for others it isn't. Astrology seems to me to be something like the study of the unique combinations of qualities inherent in different points of space-time (and the manifestation of those qualities in people's lives). In other words, variation is sort of the point, and I don't find spatial variations less acceptable than temporal variations (e.g. the motion of the planets). I am still uncomfortable with one natal chart I have studied from my location with Alcabitius houses which has 6 houses taking up only 108 degrees of the chart! Not six consecutive houses, surely? I think one problem may be an over-emphasis on the zodiac/ecliptic as the reference system (with degrees of longitude as the 'degrees of the chart'). The horizon and meridian are always at right angles, so from that point of view there is nothing unequal about quadrant houses -- on the contrary, whole-sign houses then become strangely lopsided! Quote Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:29 pm
17 by Olivia And you can get pretty far north in Maine, too. But you're in Range and Township number territory at that point, and it's probably not on regular maps. Yup, I know. Spent a summer in that....can't think of a word that won't set off the forum censor. Not a nice place. Quote Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:29 pm
18 by Ed F steven wrote: I have been practicing astrology up here for 20 years now and in all that time I have never had a chart of a native where I couldn't use a conventional quadrant system! I have never had a chart that my software refused to calculate and I must say that some of my clients live very far north in Finland! So far his conclusion is correct, the chance of catching one of these fleeting moments when the 'rules' no longer exist are very slim. I'm sure there must be nativities out there where it does exist but the reality is that out of hundreds of clients in these latitudes - it has never happened (knock on wood) yet Besides the problems with house systems I have to say that that particular situation will also cause havoc with any system depending on normal diurnal motion, such as primary directions. His resolution is actually not so illogical. In a sense, north and south reverse as does all directions- I actually think he makes a lot of sense although for most it may appear a bit strange. I think you have to live in these latitudes to also realise that 'nature' seems to change a bit up here. Normal laws of nature tend to relax a bit. I guess that's why they have so many trolls and the such Steven I like Wackford's approach as well, after 40 years of wrestling with house systems. I use it for mundane issues such as timing and angularity. I use whole signs for topical issues. - Ed Last edited by Ed F on Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total. Quote Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:31 pm
19 by Deb Its noteable Morinus never actually used the house system he proposed. I don't think it was ever meant to be taken as a serious contender against the main systems. I remember David McCann explaining that Morinus only proposed it as a solution designed specifically for high latitide locality problems and he never had the need to use it personally (as far as we know). I also think that Mike Whackford took this problem as far as anyone can and I think he proved the case for Placidus, even at high latitudes. I am completely perplexed as to why people want to use two systems of houses simultaneously though. Quote Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:33 pm
20 by Mark Deb wrote: I think he proved the case for Placidus, even at high latitudes. And whiole sign houses! It seems that only two methods of house division retain their theoretical integrity while at once offering world-wide use: Placidus and Sign/house. Any other method arguably constitutes a mathematical half-way house between the two, a compromise that causes theoretical or practical failure wherever it is applied. Wackford concludes: Placidus is not, as is repeated ad nauseum, the only quadrant method that cannot be applied above latitudes 66?. On the contrary, it is the only one that can be used in the Polar Regions without sacrificing astronomical and/or astrological integrity. That it will not always yield twelve unambiguous Ecliptic cusps does not represent failure. Rather, the absence or doubling of cusps at higher latitudes is - as has been observed - an accurate reflection of the seasonal cycle, as experienced at that place. It is also an accurate reflection of what happens when astrological precepts developed in tropical and temperate regions of the world are applied near its Poles. No doubt the mathematics of this argument are impecable. Nevertheless, I still have an issue with the practical astrological consequences of such an approach at high latitudes. Deb wrote: I am completely perplexed as to why people want to use two systems of houses simultaneously though. I remember the first time I had a chart reading the astrologer used two house systems (Placidus and Equal). I have heard the argument that equal houses showed inner potential while Placidus houses showed a more obvious outward manifestation of destiny. It probably has more legitimacy for natal work..if at all. In terms of horary I can see how it would make a clear judgement even harder. Actually, I seem to recall Stephen uses (or used to use) Alcabitius and Whole sign together. Maybe he can explain the logic? Last edited by Mark on Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total. As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:07 pm
21 by Olivia Mark, when you said you had problems with using Regio at your latitude, did you mean the horaries were giving completely off-the-beam results? Or is it more a philosophical conundrum? Quote Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:21 pm
22 by Mark Hi Olivia, Mark, when you said you had problems with using Regio at your latitude, did you mean the horaries were giving completely off-the-beam results? Or is it more a philosophical conundrum? I cant site a horary chart and honestly state Regiomontanus has let me down. But then I haven't done hundreds plus I haven't really tried horary with any other house systems. Although I am using whole sign houses for natal I have yet to cross the rubicon and use it for horary. That is despite Robert Hand claiming good results with. Even Ben Dykes seems to be drifting away from Alcabitius houses to Whole sign. Still, something about horary makes me think quadrant systems make particular sense in these kind of charts. Yes its largely a 'philosophical conundrum' as you put it. I might also describe it as an aesthetic issue. Then again we do live in an imperfect sub-lunar world. Perhaps I am being over literal here in seeking a symmetry that does not really exist between the earth and sky. I found Martin's post interesting and something to ponder. In particular: I think one problem may be an over-emphasis on the zodiac/ecliptic as the reference system (with degrees of longitude as the 'degrees of the chart'). The horizon and meridian are always at right angles, so from that point of view there is nothing unequal about quadrant houses -- on the contrary, whole-sign houses then become strangely lopsided! Last edited by Mark on Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total. As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:30 pm
23 by Deb Eh, it's difficult Mark... I don't know what to suggest. Martin is persuasive but don't let him tempt you into giving up on the ecliptic. Probably easier for you to just move down to England. Wackford wrote:It seems that only two methods of house division retain their theoretical integrity while at once offering world-wide use: Placidus and Sign/house I'm sure he would agree with me that only one of those is actually "a method of house division". The other is a method which avoids division. Quote Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:41 pm
24 by Mark Martin is persuasive but don't let him tempt you into giving up on the ecliptic. Probably easier for you to just move down to England. Well I thought I better be polite as his new book is so fantastic! Probably easier for you to just move down to England. What all 5 million of us? I better confess most astrologers in Scotland are still happily working with Placidus houses with a few Equal house dissenters for natal. Still, I want to research the history, astronomy etc of houses for a talk in which I hope to shake a few people out of their complacency. I am hoping to studyJD North's book' Horoscopes and History' too. Martin gives some intriguing references to the book in his own book on Primary Directions. As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:47 pm