Hi Eddy

Thank you for your post. There so many interesting aspects that would merit being addressed individually, but let me just address two.

Using 97 lots at one time or dozens of asteroids increase the chance of finding something that works sometimes and doesn't work other times. Overcompleteness is especially "usefull" in hindsight interpretation.
"Oh my god, my converse solar arc progressed Juno - Sedna midpoint is in a septile aspect to my natal Chiron-Pluto midpoint in the 22.5? dial in my 11th harmonic chart, and I'm com-plete-ly stressed out!"

My statement that if you get two different results for the same issue, then at least one of them has to be wrong was targeted specifically at hindsight results. What you describe here is a ?technique? quite often used that is not explainable and not teachable, and also not fit for predictions. It falls under the category ?anything goes?, and it cannot be debated.

Colin Wilson's book "The Occult" tells about 'solar science' which is the modern science like astronomy and physics etc. and 'lunar science' all kinds of divination like tarot, I Ching etc. While these divination methods mainly depend on what one would call mere coincidence (of the cards laid down and the thrown coins), astrology depends on the 'hard facts' of science.

My astrology friend is a PhD in mathematics, and he vividly dissents the idea of ?coincidence?. He even says it can be proven that there is ? mathematically - no such thing as a coincidence. It?s interesting that in German coincidence is called ?Zufall?, literally meaning ?that which falls to you?. So with I Ging or Tarot, how the cards or sticks fall mean ?what falls to you?.
In natal Astrology, the child chooses the ?moment?. In horary, the question determines the moment. In mundane Astrology, the Earth chooses the moment of the earthquake, or a group of politicians chooses to make an agreement.
But never in Astrology, we humans put the planets in a certain place like we do with sticks, coins or cards. ? That?s the difference between Astrology and other divinatory methods, Mr Cornelius!

Just some thoughts, inspired by your post

Ren?

In natal Astrology, the child chooses the ?moment?. In horary, the question determines the moment. In mundane Astrology, the Earth chooses the moment of the earthquake, or a group of politicians chooses to make an agreement.

And the astrologer is off doing what while all this happens? Surely, without an astrologer to interpret the symbols implied in all this there is no astrology?

What about 'wrong charts' that still seem to work?

Mark

No we don't put the planets in different places, but we do choose the moment we ask a horary question - and the planets are always moving. The answer I get if I ask tomorrow morning may be completely different to the answer I'd get if I asked this afternoon.

I have some serious problems with the idea that a child chooses its moment of birth, but that might be straying a bit far afield of this discussion.

No we don't put the planets in different places,

Well actually we do if we use a different zodiac or house system .

but we do choose the moment we ask a horary question -

How much choice is involved? We decide to ask an astrologer a question yes? Whats the difference between going to someone to cast the I Ching coins, read the runes or Tarot cards? We decide on a 'moment' that seems significant to us. However, in horary we have no control when the astrologer might open our email or letter for casting the chart.

and the planets are always moving. The answer I get if I ask tomorrow morning may be completely different to the answer I'd get if I asked this afternoon.

Its not just the planets. Life is always moving! Life is change, process and transformation. If I do a Tarot spread tonight it may give me a completely different interpretation from tomorrow. At the same time if the answer is basically 'no' you often find a different but similar answer by the stars or the cards/I Ching.

My astrology friend is a PhD in mathematics, and he vividly dissents the idea of ?coincidence?. He even says it can be proven that there is ? mathematically - no such thing as a coincidence. It?s interesting that in German coincidence is called ?Zufall?, literally meaning ?that which falls to you?. So with I Ging or Tarot, how the cards or sticks fall mean ?what falls to you?.

As for mathematics...have you heard of Kurt Godel's theorem?

In every consistent formal system, there always exists a proposition which is neither formally provable nor formally disprovable, yet it?s true. Kurt Godel 1930

Note this is a theorem not a theory. Its something all mathematicians accept.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... prehension

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del ... s_theorems

Olivia - maybe, a soul (child) participates in its experience-choices; which may well mean ?blindly going in this vs that direction.?

About wrong charts that work ? my opinion, astrology is the mathematics of thought; a gift; momentum finds its path; the path may be round-a-bout, yet it still resonates a mathematical balance, a gift, and one who can perceive the intrinsic pattern can somehow contact the pulse of the moment. Quite un-scientific.

However, transcending this, are not wrong charts simply wrong?

Hi Mark,

Thank you for your two (well, three in the meantime) interesting posts. Let me pick up two points.

What about 'wrong charts' that still seem to work?

I have very firm opinion on that but we can of course debate it.
To me, this is lousy technique coupled with self-delusion! I have to put it that drastically because more often it happened to me (and my astrologer friends) that when a chart reading with a client just didn?t make sense ? including metagnosis, when several events didn?t fit -, it was the wrong chart.

This is why I keep coming back to the consciousness of the astrologer. I believe the astrologer has to have total faith in their technique.

And the astrologer off doing what while all this happens? Surely, without an astrologer to interpret the symbols implied in all this there is no astrology?

Without the consciousness of the human mind, no insights. That?s absolutely understood.

Your other remark, that the astrologer has to have total faith in their technique, I agree 100%. - no, 1000%! This is so true from my own experience but it?s also very puzzling and alarming! (Hello self-delusion). But to me it shows that Astrology is more than the application of a technique. When reading a chart, I have to free from all thoughts (and especially doubts) about technique. Just have to concentrate on the moon and not the finger.

Ren?

However, in horary we have no control when the astrologer might open our email or letter for casting the chart.

The tossing of the horary I Ching coins and the laying of the horary Tarot cards is when we send the email or post the letter. Our action gets the divination ball rolling.


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It's really not about astrology at all, but about the astrologer. The astrologer is the true subject of this thread (and of so many more).

We go where the ideas mesh with our imagination. We start with a fantasy about reading the sky, but as our involvement grows through learning technique so grows identification with our ideas as parts of ourselves. We align with those who see similarly in order to gain mutual strengthening and encouragement, and in becoming dutiful group members we learn to depreciate our individual experience. What I see in these sorts of discussions is support for the group's experience. Traditionalist groups are particularly prone to such an individual-suppressing belief. It easily goes unquestioned.

The more we lose sight of the beginning in individual fantasy, and the more we engage the ego ? the consciously acknowledged self ? and its ties with other like-minded sorts, the stronger becomes the rational function and its grip. The rational mind takes over and the ideas we hold about astrology become more important than the images that inspired us. The ideas become further empowered as a common language between members: The group and its language pushes aside the individual and his or her experience of images. If we want ease of Internet discussion and books that lie side by side on a common ground, then we do need the group language. But for some strange and sad reason the common language is treated as the more valid and desirable end. We value the unified Internet group experience over individual experience. Individual experience is frowned upon as narcissistic babbling.

Images within the mind of the astrologer, quietly shaped and focused with his or her well-practiced method and procedure, lead to vision. A unified group thought belief system doesn't.

But no, I can't prove it.

It's really not about astrology at all, but about the astrologer. The astrologer is the true subject of this thread (and of so many more).

Thanks Kirk. Very succinct and so true.

Mark

Hi to all

Thank you so much for your contributions. I?m amazed. What has started with my trivial question about techniques has turned to the much more fundamental questions about the ?moment of astrology? and the r?le and consciousness of the Astrologer.

At the same time, I?m a bit perturbed if some of you (especially Kirk) seem to put the only emphasis on the Astrologer. What about the planets? Is it not important that they are physically there at the ?moment of astrology?? Without any action from the Astrologer? Unlike Tarot or I Ging, where humans put them in place. In astrology, humans can only chose the moment (in horary or by birth), they can?t move the objects of astrology, whereas in I Ging or Tarot, they can move stick, coins or cards???

The great lesson that astrology teaches me is also a lesson in humility. I?m not so important, I can?t move the planets. If I want to move something, I toss coins or lay cards??..

Ren?

Kirk, I think you need to become a sky omenologist and a novelist!

Wrong charts: Don't work for me. Had the horrible experience once of putting AM for PM or vice-versa for a client's horary - fortunately it was a client I deal with on a regular basis, so she didn't hesitate to tell me that I was completely off the beam.

When I redid the chart for the right time, it DID work. And thankfully it's only happened the once.

I'm extremely leery of children choosing birth times, etc., as that gets into territory we can never verify. And it also gets into the old chestnut of free will. Now, free will works in the West, because a lot of western folks were brought up Christian, existentialist, or new age, and all those paradigms posit absolute, or close to absolute free will.

For those of us who've never been Christian, or existentialist, or new age, there are some problems. Yet Jews and Muslims have still been good astrologers throughout the ages, as have other people who come from worldviews where the fate/free will thing isn't so much argued over - it's just a non-issue.

I can't believe in God in English - there's just too much reification and baggage that goes with the term, and it's a noun. But - the part of Jewish foundatinal myth I can agree with is that once upon a time, long ago and far away, God had a hand in the world. But now it's time for us to grow up, so God doesn't. But God, not being completely without compassion, did leave us the stars, if we can but read them, for guidance.

Thing is, whether you believe that, or free will, or whatever - you should still be able to be an astrologer. And I've seen so much speculative philosophical stuff written in books as if it's absolute fact that all astrologers agree on and - ugh! It's not.

Maybe that's the group think?

Individual experience does come into it. Why do I have so many natal clients with a Saturn-Mars opposition across the ascendant? The aspect isn't that common, but I do - disporportionately. Why have Clelia Romano and I both found that the conjunction of the South Node to personal planets often indicates severe child abuse? And the North Node isn't a whole lot better.

It's not written down in the tradition that I'm aware of - but it's still there.

Even with astrology, there's a whole lot we can never know for sure. And maybe different astrologers attract different sorts of clients?

I honestly have no answers there.

At the same time, I?m a bit perturbed if some of you (especially Kirk) seem to put the only emphasis on the Astrologer. What about the planets? Is it not important that they are physically there at the ?moment of astrology??

Hi Rene,

No offence but that approach is too literal for me. Partly, because I dont see astrology working on the basis of Newtonian physical cause/effect at all. Astronomers are fond of telling us that the Surgeon has more gravitational impact on the birth of a child than the planet Jupiter. Yes the stars and planets are 'out there' as actual physical points of reference. However, we dont relate to them astrologically as lumps of gas and rock the way science tells us they are. We see their actual cycles as symbolic principles which mirror ourselves and the world around us.

Focusing on the reality of the planets is like focusing on the reality of a piece of countryside in creating a work of beautiful landscape art. Yes the countryside is there. However, its the vision and creativity of the artist that makes the painting possible. Moreover, no two artists will present the image in exactly the same way. Separated in space the parallax view is different while in time the weather/light/scene will have changed. Doesn't this remind you of astrology?

In astrology, humans can only chose the moment (in horary or by birth), they can?t move the objects of astrology, whereas in I Ging or Tarot, they can move stick, coins or cards???

As someone that has actually used and studied the I Ching for nearly 30 years I have a real problem with this kind of logic. The implication again is that astrology is superior? Different yes but superior? Surely, that depends on the practitioner reading the cards /I ching or horoscope? Again the cards and I Ching are part of the physical universe too. However, they are only useful once we understand how to work with them by understanding their symbolic meaning. They are all simply tools or fingers pointing at the Moon. None of these tools are the Moon.

Ok I throw the coins (or burn yarrow sticks), or read Tarot. Yes I select the card. However, I dont consciously select the outcome. Its the same for someone asking a horary question.

The great lesson that astrology teaches me is also a lesson in humility. I?m not so important, I can?t move the planets. If I want to move something, I toss coins or lay cards??..

Fair enough. Actually though I have met a couple of really arrogant astrologers.

The I ching is unique because if you ask it a trivial question it will usually tell you off in no uncertain terms! Unfortunately, people can do all kinds of self indulgent things with horoscopes. Horoscopes dont talk back! As a spiritual self development tool I have found The I ching better than astrology. It really inculcates values such as modesty, patience, generousity etc. There are so many ways a person can go off the rails in astrology. With the I ching the experience is like communiting with a real person or oracle.

At the same time, I?m a bit perturbed if some of you (especially Kirk) seem to put the only emphasis on the Astrologer. What about the planets? Is it not important that they are physically there at the ?moment of astrology?? Without any action from the Astrologer? Unlike Tarot or I Ging, where humans put them in place. In astrology, humans can only chose the moment (in horary or by birth), they can?t move the objects of astrology, whereas in I Ging or Tarot, they can move stick, coins or cards???

The great lesson that astrology teaches me is also a lesson in humility. I?m not so important, I can?t move the planets. If I want to move something, I toss coins or lay cards??..

Let's consider the possibility that the coins and cards too are always 'there' in a sense and always in motion, that we only stop them ? freeze them in place ? when we toss them or lay them. Or rather, that which lies behind yet also within the coins and cards is always in motion. We play at stop-and-go with their physical representatives.

Likewise, the planets are always present, always in motion. With the coins and cards we need to imagine their eternal presence and motion. But the sky, stars, planets, Sun and Moon show us the eternal motion and presence through their physical presence. The primary motion ? the sky's motion from east to west ? never stops, so that even a planet stationary in the zodiac is still in motion. Constant motion. The astrologer seemingly stops the motion in drawing up a chart for a moment. The astrologer then possibly becomes enfolded within the halted images of the planets, stars and signs and can't look through them and out to the context. A lot of squabbling and insistent astrologers may be writing on the walls of a box.

It's a rather large issue.