And lots of times people don't get out of war zones or survive. I think what I find so galling about the new agers is that I apparently chose this before I was born, so my progressive disability and that I won't live a long time is 'a life lesson'. And of course, had I exercised my free will properly, well, either I wouldn't have got the bad genetics, or I'd have found a way to magically cure everything.

I have a client who grew up in a war. He has dealt with it amazingly well, despite having lost over 60 family members by the age of eleven years - everyone - parents, siblings, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins. Then he had a repeat disaster, though not on the same scale, about ten years ago, and once again survived, but saw a whole lot of people beheaded. And when it does get to him because sometimes it does because he's human - many people say 'get over it'. I've seen this happen myself. And wanted to hit them.

I'm not sure how you do that any better than he has done. I'm also not sure why so many people are so insensitive. Well, no, I do know. It's because they believe if these things happen to you - you deserve them. Not making assumptions here, they've out and out said it. Wow. Amazing level of maturity in this society. Schoolyard bulies who never grew up.

On a lesser scale, what do you do with the clients who are in their fifties, have never had a good relationship, and are never going to? That's not an easy one to deal with either. But for a lot of people - it's what happens. Is it the client's fault? Maybe sometimes, but there's a horrible drivenness to some Mars aspects - and it doesn't get better for them. But pop culture says it will if they wish hard enough. And they do, believe me. But no magic happens.

Again, I think if this stuff was fixable, or avoidable - people would avoid it or fix it except for maybe three extremely hard-core masochists. Yet - it happens. And I don't believe we choose it before we're born - because these are things that nobody would choose, even if we did have such incredible ability. Nor do a lot of people really want to 'hold onto them', but....

Nothing I can say, really.

Olivia wrote:And lots of times people don't get out of war zones or survive.

Of course!

Well, no, I do know. It's because they believe if these things happen to you - you deserve them

Or- whatever I have that is good- I have it because I have personally deserved it. This is something that causes frustration on personal level mainly but, again- as an Astrologer, a person needs to be aware of that because clients who seek for help are often pressed by a double burden- the reality hurts them and the people's reaction to their troubles often makes it even worse.

4 - Life Theater ....an example of an actress who "had all the signs of alcoholism" and instead of being alcoholic, she played one on theater. I would ask why so many actor seem to have so awful lives, but that?s me.

After studying Natal charts of 200 actors - I feel challenged to answer this! And, once again, I'm surprised I haven't thought of that before. The influence of Neptune and the 12th on the professional life of an actor is actually a great example in this case.
When I took up examining those approximately 200 charts, I picked about 150 charts of very prominent actors (film, theatre, cabaret etc.) and about 50 charts of future professional actors who were, at the time, still students. All of these people have chosen a job that is directly orientated towards the public (regardless of the nature of their specific job- 200 people in a theatre or 2 million people across the world in front of their TV's doesn't make that much of a difference at this point, it's still the actor's audience) and, in order to succeed, besides talent- they all needed a Natal promise that they would or could become "available to the audience"- visible, present, exposed.... (Naturally, the second part often helps those with no talent whatsoever to succeed. It can also turn a completely non-public profession intoa public one in some cases- i've seen that happen many times as well).

And, as you can imagine- not all of them were "lucky" enough to have that promise in ther charts. In the charts of about 7-8 people, I actually found a very strong 12th house. So, in order to see if there was any way out of that "place" before concluding that they should simply switch to working behind the curtains and cameras- I checked similar placements and aspects in the charts of actors with (already) established careers and, apparently- it works! Neptune is disguise and 12th isn't public either, but they can both be very helpful. I hope I'm not wrong here, i'd have to check again but I think that the chart of Peter Sellers is one good example- he literally became popular under disguise. People often called him Pink Panther. Naturally, actors are often called by the names of their characters and identiffied with them but here I'm trying to give an example of an actor who spends his life under the shadow of his most famous character, not being able to escape its influence and leave its shadow or, in other words- not being able to remove that recognisable mask (Neptune). That is something no actor would want to see happening to him/her and, while the audience labels such characters as their "master pieces", the actors tend to call them the"doomed characters" as they can actually often be counterproductive.

BUT, if that is the only way out of the 12th for an actor "trapped" inside it (L1 inside the 12th, L7 inside the 12th,10th/12th connection, strong influence of Neptune etc.)- focusing onto it could be an extremely good thing for someone still looking for his/her place under the sun. Radio shows often work as well, additional incomes from synchronizing films, cartoons etc. Even characters described by the 12th. There's plenty of options. Now that I think about it- it is probably the best example of turning "negative" into your own advantage I've seen so far- it's actually a very practical approach in my opinion. Instead of staying invisible- the actors can get a chance to present their talent.
When the Natal chart promises trubled speech that is at least half curable- a strong Venus or other indicators of powerful voice can also compensate and improve the general impression caused by he deformation (in acting, such things are called deformations).
Prominent Virgo, strong Saturn and other signs of strong personality and dedication can sometimes can be used for improving skills that are not on the desired level- most of the times, if there's a huge deformation or a problem, it's actually a very long process but I've seen people who get rid of stuttering after 3 years of hard work. That's a long time and includes many, many exhausting lessons, hours spent in the doctor's office and hard work.
Naturally, it goes beyond just the 12th, the 10th also needs to be examined and, not at all surprisingly - those who have had to take the more bumpy road and even find themselves another job (even only temporarily ) often had an intercepted sign inside their 10th. And some of them were actually among the most talented students.

Ok, and now, as for the second cynical but also very true comment:

I would ask why so many actor seem to have so awful lives, but that?s me.

This may not be entirely a part of what we're talking about here but, since you have mentioned it I might just add that - unfortunately, it is only a part of a dead circle that this profession can sometimes turn into and, again , i find Neptune often very descriptive in such cases. Acting is a very hard and exhausting profession for many reasons but, a top of all- it is unnatural because, unless we're talking about street entertainers and clowns, an authentic actor is actually constantly breathing life into characters, creating them, examining them, identifying him/her self with them and all that with a single purpose- to eventually embody (incorporate) them in front of the audience. And, most of the times, that basically means- to accept their heart pulse, their thoughts and emotions. There are various very helpful techniques, actors are not insane by default but the result they're trying to achive is generally unnatural and, often- unhealthy. Having someone elses heart pulse even for an hour is not natural! Having to switch from one heart pulse to another and back even once a day- is unhelthy and unnatural too! it's actually quite schizophrenic. But that's they way it is. That is also one of the main reasons why some religions do not support this profession- unlike many people think; it is not because actors live "messy" lives but because, in their eyes, no one but God is allowed to create a person(ality) which is exactly what actors are constantly doing or trying to do. Add the stress caused by the presence of hundreds of people in the audience and occasional creative crisis (those can be literally devastating) and you get an extremely rough and hard profession. By hard, I do not mean to be disrespectful of other professions - but I'm trying to stress out that this one is hard because it is unnatural. And what happens when an actor bends under the weight of his so Neptunian profession? - he becomes even more Neptunian and starts drinking. They're actually trying to find a way out through the influence of Neptune- they're use dto rellying on it. And the circle is closed. Some professions require a person to be ready to "cross the line" in order to be good but, as long as you're prone to crossing lines, you never know when and where you might lose control. Actors are not the only example- ER surgeons are in the same basket, pilots too! Which is "funny" because these people often spend years gaining education and have to let go of many other dreams while chasing their chance to become professional pilots or actors....still, flying is another unnatural thing for a human being to do and it often takes its toll as well. You have certainly heard jokes about drunken pilots and drunken surgeons, right?
There are several formal studies that support this- some professions are more prone to alcoholism. Other cause heart-attacks...

A very interesting thread. I agree very much with the line Deb has taken here on this subject.

Olivia paints the issue in the starkest terms. And yes she is right the new age positivism fails to acknowledge that not every situation can be easily fixed or improved through the power of freewill. Astrology has always held that there are collective issues at stake sometimes that transcend the personal. You might have a good natal chart but if you were caught up in the Nazi Holocaust or Bosnian masacres it isn't going to do much good.

Underling this issue of 'diificult transits' is the fundamental question of why do we suffer? This is the question that all the religions seek to answer because it is surely the fundamental issue while we are alive. I therefore think the issue transcends a strictly astrological discussion. Is there a God? If so why does s/he allow suffering? Is there life after death? Are we born just once or is this life part of an innumerable number of births? Is suffering meaningless or does it have a cause?

Personally, I consider suffering in some form is a fundamental reality of the human condition. No human being can escape this in both its physical and psychological dimensions. The Stoic and Buddhist approach have one thing in common. They ask us to differentiate between action and reaction. We cannot always change or alter the world around us. However, we can reconsider how we respond to its set backs. This involves reframing our response with a patience and good humour. Despite what modern pop culture tells people the world doesn't owe you a happy ending.

I dont know if people here have heard of the psychologist and psychotherapist Viktor E. Frankl. His book 'Mans Search For Meaning' is remarkable and tells how he endured the experience of the Nazi death camps.

He has a couple of quotes that I think are apt here:

''Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.''

'He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how.?

I think for the thoughtful astrologer the piercing question is does their practice of astrology diminish their own and/or other people's suffering? Or are they devoting their energy to a self delusory escapism from the here and now realities? Does an attempt to know the future with techniques like transits give the calm sagacity Ptolemy described or make us deeply insecure and worried?

Clearly the deeper implications of this thread belong on the philosophy part of the forum........

Mark

Indeed Mark, but can we really separate the philosophy from the practice, in practice, if you see what I mean?

Long ago when I studied tarot the teacher said we should not confine ourselves to marriages,jobs,money &c as people may well be wanting something deeper in their readings.I am sure the same remains true if this topic is anything to go by.



Regards all

Matt

Indeed Mark, but can we really separate the philosophy from the practice, in practice, if you see what I mean?

Well perhaps not in real life but on Skyscript forum yes!

Seriously, though I dont mind combining the two here as long as the moderators accept your outlook.

Mark

Several thoughts and replies?

Deb Wrote

"But no matter what self-affirmation techniques is used, no matter what herbal remedy is applied, if a man suffers from male-pattern baldness then a Saturn transit will trigger that and hair loss will occur. That?s a typically Saturn-opp-Uranus example."

Granny asks: So what would be typical for a woman? (you intrigued me I hadn?t heard that one before)

Olivia Said ?I'm not sure how you do that any better than he has done. I'm also not sure why so many people are so insensitive. Well, no, I do know. It's because they believe if these things happen to you - you deserve them. Not making assumptions here, they've out and out said it. Wow. Amazing level of maturity in this society. Schoolyard bullies who never grew up.?
And new age issue?

Granny replies (rather long)

I don?t tell most of my life stories because people tend not to believe them, I?ve done some interesting things in life. I notice people tend to NOT believe that bad things happen without reason, they tend to NOT believe you couldn?t have somehow avoided some bad thing etc and in general don?t know how to respond to such deep and frightening issues (in my experience) I generally find that you are better off not to discuss the really scary stuff with people who haven?t experienced terrible loss or tragedy because they are incapable of getting it. Sort of like a person describing how childbirth feels who?s never given birth, really some things just don?t translate. or in short, they are Frightened and frightened people TEND to respond poorly.

Now having said all that I?m going to use a Dwyer quote because I think it is one of the most sensible things I?ve ever heard. ?there is no Rewind in life.? That which is, is and that which has happened has happened and the only thing you have control over is your response to these things. I find it interesting that several persons have talked about stoicism and then bad mouthed having a positive attitude in the same breath and what is stoicism but facing difficulty with your best face forward? The entire new age message about facing adversity with a smile is stoicism by another name.

As to changing your life with positive thinking or behavior, do you think that the hiring manager down the street wants to hire the stone faced hair shirt wearing martyr? Or the person who comes in with a smile and keeps their personal tragedies personal? How about relationships? Do you think the first thing some man or woman wants to hear from you when they meet is about your tragic past? Or perhaps that is something to save for when you know each other better and sharing sad parts of your life is more appropriate? Or with neighbors, how many of your neighbors do you think have experienced anything remotely as terrifying as losing loved ones to violent tragedy and can have any remote understanding? Even if people empathise with tragedy, they dont want to listen to the martyrs tale for the most part, those that do generally aren't interested in the person but in fixing you (unless its your therapist I dont recommend hanging out with people who want to fix you, it isn't really you they care about) This is my opinion, others may vary.

The kind of loss you suggest is generally found in PTSS survival groups, sometimes in rape survival groups, but rarely by society at large and those persons will shut down on you because they don?t want to face such tragedy or loss, it brings it to close to them and it frightens them. If you ask them to listen, you will be sorely disappointed in the responses you receive.

As to the idea that one chooses ones life path before one gets here. I find that an academic exercise to which one can not possibly know the answer until one has passed from this life. It is perhaps worth noting that the people who tend to promote this theory have lived lives that had some rather extreme trauma?s in them and are perhaps applying their own self judgment to the world at large. Martyr complexes are NOT unheard of reactions to PTSS, or another term is survivors guilt. You might re-read those works with that thought in mind and see what you think the poor writers of such might have gone through to give them survivors guilt.

Yuzuru noted ?4 - Life Theater - Robert Hand has a strange theory that if you "act" the aspect or planet, it will work in a good way. He gives an example of an actress who "had all the signs of alcoholism" and instead of being alcoholic, she played one on theater. I would ask why so many actor seem to have so awful lives, but that?s me. John Frawley said something similar that if someone didn?t played the aspect "in a good way", life would make things happen by itself, usually in a crappy way.?

ROFL, Yuzuru, I have heard several times how I should beware of alcoholism? of which I don?t have, rarely have more than a handful of drinks in a year, But I have several addictive personalities in my life I must admit, I used to wonder if the addictive persons were in my life, because I refuse to be an addicted person? (and no I don?t see my parents going away, though my ex did manage to get himself killed on his birthday so one alcoholic down and a few others to go) I?m not sure Rob Hand is entirely wrong on his idea. But it requires more observation I think?although my parents certainly wont be here forever, Dad was diagnosed with cancer and will die within the next few years, maybe sooner rather than later, Pluto is criss crossing opposition to his natal sun.
but anyway I do wonder if one can precipitate some ugly transits with forethought? I tried to save up a lot of money to survive this down economy but I've run out long ago, so I'm not sure its doable.

Thank you all for the food for thought! again my opinion, others may vary. Can you do astrology without facing this question? Probably multiple times?

Granny

PS My natal Mars is Just shy of 26 Pisces on the 6th house cusp.

I am not fond of this Saturn Uranus Transit, and neither is my Mars.

Granny

Why I went away from astrology for such a long time is you're not supposed to tell your astrologer, either - at least a lot of them. Cos they just won't get it.

And then with the free will and all the rest of it....

Thank-you for all of your thought provoking answers. Obviously this is something most of us think about because a lot of you took time to answer.