Skyscript Astrology Forum

Deb wrote:

But if we receive money from others, that's a 2nd house theme. The 8th house is money belonging to 'others'

I take your general point. Still this could surely still come together if we find Lord 8 in the 2nd house or the 1st house in a nativity?

Mark

CJ wrote:

Logically 7th ought to be physical death since it's opposite 1st.

I think that was how the ancients tended to view it too. Not only are planets opposing the ASC in the 7th but they are diurnally sinking in the sky. As a the Sun or a another planet sink into the west they disappear and fade out as we do in death. As Kirk suggested the 4th house has connections to death too though. The notion of the 8th house being in aversion (i.e. cannot see) the ascendant is a product of later hellenistic views around the houses in relation to aspect theory. We still do retain an obvious link of the 7th opposing the ASC in its association with open enemies but we combine that with our romantic partners. The latter are not always fatal...

Mark

MarkC wrote:

Logically 7th ought to be physical death since it's opposite 1st.

I think that was how the ancients tended to view it too on the whole for a quite obvious reason. As a the Sun or a another planet sink into the west they disappear and fade out as we do in death.

I do think 8th is suicide or perhaps even generally unnatural death (but can't really rationalize it astrologically).

Hi Deb,

There is nothing complex about this house: its essential meaning is simply decline, or reduction or 'nullification' if you like. That may not be a bad thing (unless its the big one) because periodically we need to stop and think about what we have to let go of.

Thats fine if your discussing horary, electional or natal progressions and transits. Its more challenging when you are looking at a natal chart itself (as I did some time ago) loaded with planets in the 8th house. And yes many of the themes you might imagine came up ...sexual abuse, mental breakdown etc. Fortunately, there were other positives to focus on. It rather starkly brought home to me the differences between horary and natal work.

You cant just simply say to a person with a natal chart like that, as you can with a question, ...no sorry better luck next time! At the same time I am not advocating whitewashing things just to make things look more acceptable either. Still, it does bring home the need for some basic counselling skills no matter what kind of astrology you practice. I dont think I handled that reading particularly well and its served as an important lesson ever since.

Mark

Could the 8th represent altered states of consciousness?

Deb wrote:There is nothing complex about this house: its essential meaning is simply decline, or reduction or 'nullification' if you like. That may not be a bad thing (unless its the big one) because periodically we need to stop and think about what we have to let go of.

In my opinion the 8th has it's edge and boarderline. It is the Euruka point and orgasmic transition of any discovery, initiation, death or sexual experience. Having experimented with meditation and into astral projection I would say that letting go is the key to the many discoveries and treasures of this house.

Working with the charts of clients the 8th represents growth, change and crises. The native may be ready to move up a level or there may a period of correction, learning and 'letting go'.

Andrew wrote:

Could the 8th represent altered states of consciousness?

I would have thought this traditionally comes under the 9th house house? Unless you are discussing drug induced states that leave the person dead or mentally unstable.

Clearly positive things can emerge after a journey involving pain and suffering. That kind of insight may be something we can take out of the 8th house. However, I dont see much resolution coming from inside the 8th house itself.

In my opinion the 8th has it's edge and boarderline. It is the Euruka point and orgasmic transition of any discovery, initiation, death or sexual experience. Having experimented with meditation and into astral projection I would say that letting go is the key to the many discoveries and treasures of this house.

Do you have any traditional sources to support this interpretation or are you just finding the traditional meanings are not working out in real charts for you? I do think there is a sense of ego wipe out about this house. However, it doesn't seem to carry the more positive association of the 9th with its emphasis on transcendence and communication with the divine.

Mark

Andrew Bevan wrote: It is the Euruka point and orgasmic transition of any discovery, initiation, death or sexual experience. Having experimented with meditation and into astral projection I would say that letting go is the key to the many discoveries and treasures of this house.

I am of the opinion this is the 12th house. It's the "other", the "unknown", the end of of the cycle and the zodiac and transition to a higher cycle. The Pisces constellation also has very few (physical) stars. Occultism is deliberate withholding knowledge and power to a few elect. To occult means to obscure as in the New Moon (Scorpio is where the Moon is in detriment so it corresponds to the New Moon, traditionally important in black magic). The 9th I see as traditional religion, aspiration to some higher state in afterlife (but not really the end of the cycle, only aspiration). Of course many would probably disagree based on their own beliefs.

Answering MarkC post:
The 9th house I perceive as travelling, learning, philosophy and the like. Whether studying at university, getting married or making any other legal application - the 9th house provides a certificate and passport and works like an admission card allowing the person to move out into the world and participate in further stages of life or exploration.

The 8th rips you off - for good or for bad. I think the 8th need to be explored and secured. It isn't a place where you want to be walking in the dark. I think it is an area we need to get on the top of to be able to apply with resourcefulness.

In natal interpretation I use the 8th house as a build on Tad Mann's theory of the 9th house representing the the moment of conception (the long journey of the spermia and impregnated egg at the beginning of life). In this way the 8th house says something about the procreative act between the mother and father that leads up to the moment of conception (passing from one world to another and stepping into existance). In this context I also use the 7th to describe the social setting between the parents that lead up to the procreative act.

As I consequense of this discussion I found myself wondering last night, that while we often say that the ascendant discribes the birth of a person and meeting of worlds, I wonder whether there is an 8th house connection involved for the woman 'giving' birth. Giving birth and being born are two different things.

I think the 8th need to be explored and secured. It isn't a place where you want to be walking in the dark. I think it is an area we need to get on the top of to be able to apply with resourcefulness.

The 8th is where we learn that we can't always be in control and on top of things. It tells us that sometimes we inevitably will and must walk in the dark. The fact that it was called the Idle Place indicates that plans can and do come to nothing, that life doesn't always progress according to our will, that we aren't always able to wrestle and win. Sometimes life means lying fallow, and that would seem like death to a consciousness that needs drive and a forward thrust. It's an important lesson that western societies don't like very much. And it's definitely averse the power of the Ascendant!

Hi Andrew,

The 9th house I perceive as travelling, learning, philosophy and the like. Whether studying at university, getting married or making any other legal application - the 9th house provides a certificate and passport and works like an admission card allowing the person to move out into the world and participate in further stages of life or exploration.

I would see the formalisation of your studies or legal matters in the 10th house. Thats where these things gain public recognition and official status for the world to see.

Going back to traditional sources you see the 9th house associated with dreams, prophetic visions, communication with God(s). Why else would the Greeks have named this as the house of God? I am not saying this is the only house or part of the chart that can have spiritual associations. The 3rd house was the house of the Goddess so that is important. Ptolemy suggested the soul was identified in its rational part by the mercury and the non-rational by the Moon. Lots of hellenistic astrologers also gave considerable emphasis to the Lot of Spirit. Then there is Jupiter. There are lots of possible signifiers.

However, IMHO there is too much of a tendency in modern astrology to give everything a positive interpretation. Sometimes life just plain sucks and there is no rainbow full of gold waiting for you. The beginning of wisdom with the 8th house is acknowledging the pain and suffering that comes with loss we all experience and working through it. Spiritual practices can be very helpful in such situations if they are grounded in the here and now. What I have no time for is Pollyannaish escapism.

Mark

Mark,

When ancient astrologers labelled the house 'idle' they didn't mean only in horary. But I was emphasising the purity of the 8th house theme in terms of the simple question 'friend or foe'; only to demonstrate that one way or another, something gets given away in this house - it is not a place where we experience gain. In your earlier response, you wrote:

Deb wrote:

Quote:
But if we receive money from others, that's a 2nd house theme. The 8th house is money belonging to 'others'

I take your general point. Still this could surely still come together if we find Lord 8 in the 2nd house or the 1st house in a nativity?

Here I'd say that the 8th house theme is seen more clearly when the 1st or 2nd ruler is in the 8th.

Also, please note I specifically stated that the theme of elimination or nullification isn't necessarily a bad thing. Of course, it has to be understood by the astrologer, placed into context, and interpreted accordingly.

You cant just simply say to a person with a natal chart like that, as you can with a question, ...no sorry better luck next time!

I would never take that flippant attitude in a horary consultation, and it is beyond my belief that such a thing could happen in a natal reading.

It rather starkly brought home to me the differences between horary and natal work

Every expression of astrology is profound and needs handling with great care and sensitivity when we are in the process of consultation. Horary can touch upon life issues too, and the 8th house themes, wherever they arise, need deep consideration. All astrologers need to be able to counsel, guide and advise effectively - you surely know that for many years I have been advocating that as a principle which relates as much to horary as it does to all other branches of astrology. Hence I don't see the stark difference of approach in consultation work between horary and natal work that you do; but that?s another matter.

Hello Deb,

I have little time to reply to you just now. However, I do want to clarify when you state

I would never take that flippant attitude in a horary consultation, and it is beyond my belief that such a thing could happen in a natal reading.

I was being tongue in cheek to make my point. Clearly the humour wasn't as transparent as I had hoped.

Of course I would expect any ethical professional astrologer to put things sensitively. I am aware you teach an approach in horary that focuses on an empathic approach to the client in consultations. Leaving humour aside though, which clearly isn't working for me today, the distinction I feel is not about how the astrologer behaves but rather the potential detrimental impact on the client.

Clearly if you are telling someone their relationship is not going to work out based on a horary chart reading that can cause a lot of pain, distress and denial. That does need to be handled very sensitively. However, if you are seeing lots of negative considerations in a natal chart it seems to raise a different kind of challenge to me. The emphasis shifts from a question important in someone's life at that time to the question of their entire life. If you dont see that as an important distinction I dont feel its my role to convince you otherwise.

Mark