Skyscript Astrology Forum

Probably was the only way to connect any star of that nature to the ascendant

I wonder about the ascendant, too. There is no mention of documentation for the data. In order to get to 17 Virgo on the ASC one has to knock off over 40 minutes of clock time from the Rodden data. If in fact the Rodden data is "from memory," it was known in Watters day as Borden died in 1927.

Tom

Given the confusion, is it possible that Ascendant and East Point (Antivertex) were mixed up?

Zosma's Right Ascension 166?40' (16?40' Virgo)
East Point's Right Ascension 168?33' (18?33' Virgo)

Ren?

With the talk about fixed stars exalted (sidereally) transit Mars has full aspect to Moon on the murder date, and that's the only full aspect (Sun is also conjunct, but more separation). Exalted Mars also has full aspect to the Moon (Sun dispositor) in 10th in the lunar return. Natally Mars has full aspect to the Sun conjunction. At the acquittal Sun and dispositor are in the 12th for the return, suggesting maybe perjury and deception (however the last bothers me somewhat, since the 12th is also imprisonment. On the other hand I disagree with an A rating for memory charts).

with a bit playing with the Astrodienst charts going for Asc. 17?00' Virgo, this gives local time 9h03h30s Sidereal Time 4h53m48s
MC 14?45'Gemini, East Point 12?03'Virgo, Anti-Vertex 26?39' Leo.
(I'm sorry Ren? but according to the definitions I have found the East Point is not the same as the Anti-Vertex)


Zosma/Delta Leonis is in the Astronomical Ephemeris position for the year 2006,5 is:
11h14m27.2s Right Ascension = 168?37' RA
+20?29'17" Declination.

Converted to ecliptical coordinates (I used obliquity ecliptic of 23?27' to perform the conversion and in all calculations, also of Vertex and East Point) gives ca. : 21?24' Virgo, +14?20' Latitude.

The RA and Decl. of a point on the ecliptic at 17?Virgo is
11h12m10s = 168?03' RA, + 5?08' Decl.

If Zosma would have been on the ecliptic, having latitude 0? (like Watters has been doing) whilst using the same right ascension then ecliptical position is 17?37'. This is for the middle of the year 2006. At Borden's birthday 146 years earlier the star was 2?02' back in the (tropical) zodiac, so at 15?35' Virgo. In the (let's say middle of the) year of Watters' book some 37 before 2006.5 the position would have been 0?31' back in the ecliptic giving postion of 17?06' Virgo.

So unless I have made some mistake here she used an astronomical ephemeris of the 1960's and didn't perform correction for precession of the equinoxes. Could someone with a computer program verify this?

There are some astrological references that are inexplicable. I mean how many of us knew that the 17 Virgo - Pisces axis was an axis of violence?

Perhaps Watters used Sabian symbols, these are so vague that they can be interpreted in any which way you wish to.

I had a look at the chart and I don't understand why Watters would be so bothered with some star at the ascendant while there are some very tight aspects of Sun, Venus and Mars.

The transits (at time of the murders) of Neptune and the (not yet discovered) Pluto (in conjunction with eachother in those years) are interesting. Both (transiting) were conjunct natal Uranus, which isn't very special but there's a 135? aspect to Mars, soon followed by a sextile to natal Moon and the 45? aspects to Venus and Sun. Transiting Uranus would have been 45? from the 17? Ascendant.

I'm sorry that I have to depend so much on modern planets and relatively modern aspects especially now the thread is in the traditional section. I try to use them as little as possible.
Without them the position of transiting Saturn would have been interesting if the Rodden data is used, conjunct ascendant. Saturn was also sextile to Sun, Venus and trine to Mars.
Jupiter transited square to the Sun conj. Venus to Mars opposition.

I don't see much with the Secondary progressions. I usually look mainly at the Sun and a bit to the Moon, very reluctant with the other planets. 2ndary progr Moon was square to the natal Sun conj. Venus to Mars opposition (just like Jupiter's transit but on the opposite side). Progressed Sun had been conjunct Saturn about 2 'years' before. I sometimes doubt the secondary progressions but if they work I think they (or at least the Sun's) are related to important decisions. If she did commit the murder then the idea might have come up at this progression and preparations might have been made for a 'perfect' crime. With such an activated Saturn, the transits would have had stronger effect.

As a 'Keplerian' I don't look much at houses but Saturn going through the XIIth house and progressed Sun as well could indicate more of this. XIIth house, 'hidden enemies', could either make her the hidden person or if she was innocent, the victim of a hidden enemy who commited the perfect crime yet foisting the guilt upon her.

Hi Eddy,

(I'm sorry Ren? but according to the definitions I have found the East Point is not the same as the Anti-Vertex)

You are right of course. The East Point is the intersection of the Prime Vertical with the east horizon, projected onto th ecliptic, while the (Anti-)Vertex is the intersection of the Prime Vertical with the ecliptic itself. Sorry for the confusion.

If Zosma would have been on the ecliptic, having latitude 0? (like Watters has been doing) whilst using the same right ascension then ecliptical position is 17?37'. This is for the middle of the year 2006. At Borden's birthday 146 years earlier the star was 2?02' back in the (tropical) zodiac, so at 15?35' Virgo. In the (let's say middle of the) year of Watters' book some 37 before 2006.5 the position would have been 0?31' back in the ecliptic giving postion of 17?06' Virgo.

Great detective work!

Ren?

(Using Astrobank birth data + whole sign house method)
-Subject's moon, jupiter, mercury, saturn all in 12th house in leo (murders committed during leo)
-double malefic cauda draconis ("ketu"; mix of malefic mars/saturn qualities) also in leo at 2 degrees (conjunct jupiter; also within 5 degrees of sun and 8 degrees of moon)
-part of death of parents at 4 virgo; this is in 1st house; by progression of 1 degree per year, cauda draconis comes into 1 degree orb of part of death of parents at subject's 31st year; conjuncts part of death of parents in subject's 32 year (murders commited in subject's 32 year)
-part of murder at 13 degrees gemini located in 10th house; part of murder is highest elevation element in the natal chart (10th house of renown, fame, "work of our hands", etc; mercury ruler of sign on 10th affinitive with publicity, news, newspapers, dissemination of news, etc)
-part of murder conjunct uranus in gemini in 10th house;
-both part of death of parents and part of murder have same planetary significator (mercury dispositor of both parts, the one in virgo, the other in gemini); in natal chart mercury conjunct saturn in the 12th house (in leo)
-part of murder within 4 degrees of exact trine to part of fortune in natal chart, the latter in the 2nd house (money) in libra (justice, legal matters)

Astrological specialists will see some very interesting implications of the above data relative to the (likely) guilt (or otherwise) of Lizzie Borden!

@Eddy ! Great detective work

I have a feeling

Watters could be trying a contemporary hotch-potch- using horary for chart rectification

If you are not sure about the ascendant but know the date then draw up a horary- use the ascedant and houses of the horary for natal cusps but transplant the natal planets onto the chart this chart. I understand it could be quite enlightening.

PD

In my above posting I did not use the traditional formula in calculating the part of murder; I used a "modern" formula (1922) which I found in papers by Chalid Ottway (a medical astrologer active in the early decades of the 20th century) His modification of traditional lot calculations using fixed stars I have found most valuable (in health and therapeutic analysis) The formula for the part of murder which I used (from Ottway) is asc+moon-Graffias (the fixed star Graffias-considered by Ottway to be THE violent murder star) According to Ptolemy Graffias is of the nature of mars+saturn (see Robson for general indications of its influence) Actually, my attribution of the part of murder to 13 gemini is off, in part because I used Robson's 1920 position for Graffias (and in part because I made a 10 degree error in the natal moon position); in taking Graffias back to its 1860 position (Lizzie Borden's birth), and correcting for the moon's natal position, the resulting place of the part of murder is approximately 5 gemini (however, the implications in my posting relative to the part of murder in gemini in the 10th house, remain unchanged)
+ Using the traditional formula for the part of murder (Al-Biruni), asc+moon-ruler of asc, applied to Lizzie Borden's natal chart, what would we get?
-part of murder at 13 virgo; this would place it almost in the middle between the part of death of parents (4 virgo) and the asc (25 virgo), in the first house. Mercury would be the significator for both parts (as ruler of virgo and therefore dispositor of both parts placed in that sign) and the part of murder would be in semi-sextile to the part of fortune in libra in the 2nd house.

I see a resemblance between the house division of Alchabitius and that what Watters did with the positioning of the star.

Here's a picture of Alchabitius' house division, http://www.horauranian.com/images/colum ... us_220.jpg

That meridian line that crosses the ascendant is also the line on which the star in Watters' method would be placed.

I've done some surfing on Johndro in an effort to discover just what Watters is doing and I found mostly information on the Vertex. But I found this statement that I believe is of interest:

Therefore, modern methods and means are constantly invented to manage even without having the precise Nativity worked out as for example L. Edward Johndro Geographic Locality Method (see his "The Stars - How and Where they Influence" and "The Earth in the Heavens" chapter 5 [Verification of World Events]).

Perhaps someone has these books and can give us some help here. It might be significance that Watters ASC is so close to the ASC ofthe Johndro method.

Tom

If we accept 25virgo22 as Lizzie Borden's ascendant, then we find a star conjunct it which really explains a great deal. That star is B virginis, aka Zavijava. Taking it back from Robson's 1920 table (Zavijava then at 26 virgo 02) to 1860 (Borden's birth) at the rate (given in Robson) of 46.9 seconds annually, we find it placed in Borden's natal chart at 25virgo15, within 7 minutes of perfect conjunction with her ascendant degree.
The Ptolemaic qualities attributed to Zavijava are mercury+mars; it gives it's natives "...force of character, strength, destructiveness and
COMBATIVE MOVEMENTS"...you know, like the kind of movements you would make if you were chopping someone up with an axe (vide Robson page 219-Fixed Stars book)
-A bit more specific than the speculated Zosma in this nativity, I think.
Taken together with the other natal testimony in this case (as I briefly outlined in my posts above) Zavijava being nearly exactly conjunct the (traditionally arrived at) ascendant has convinced me that Lizzie Borden did in fact "take an axe" and gave many whacks!
(Footnote: natal ascendant declination given as 1 degree 50 minutes North; declination of Zavijava for 1860-approximated from Robson's 1920 tables-is about 2 degrees 33 minutes North; thus the ascendant and Zavijava are definitely within 1 degree of parallel declination)