Deb wrote:

I am, frankly, speechless that he would casually toss them aside

Dave, frankly, you seem to be anything but speechless.
It is pure, unfounded speculation to suggest that he would "casually toss them aside", as if Ben Dykes doesn't have as much concern about the works of Bonatti as you do.

I don't understand what Shakespeare has got to do with this ...

It's tacky of me to argue, but Ben Dykes himself has said that when the current copies are gone, Bonatus will be "sold out". He didn't say that he planned a new printing, nor did he say that plans were in the air, nor did he say he was looking for a publisher. He said that when his current stock is gone, that's it. Mind is made up. I've seen too much of that from Llewellyn, who routinely throw books away. Most of Noel Tyl's best work, by the way, not to mention that of many other writers. In print for three or four years, and then gone. I don't know about you, but whenever I have to delete a book from my lists, I am very much pained.

If we spoke Navaho & someone among us translated Shakespeare & then when the few available copies were gone said, well, that's it, how would you feel? Do we have a right to Shakespeare, in our own tongue, on our own terms, or can a single individual decide that for us, at whim?

Dave

Olivia wrote:Shied away, didn't have the money, couldn't quite afford a month's salary - or more - in some parts of the world.

I can appreciate the work Ben put into this, but I hope that at some point he'll either release it as a PDF paid download at a lower price, or give permission for someone else to publish it in paperback - or some solution that can keep it available.

It's too important a work to lose, and as Dave said, we'll have it for a few years - then it'll be gone again. Much as I understand what an undertaking that kind of translation is, and that Ben certainly deseves compensation for it, I don't want to see it lost to the world.

while a PDF would be nice for all books, I personally hate reading on the computer. and if $180US (the last price I paid w/shipping) is a person's monthly salary, I would suggest they sell their computer (needed for PDFs) and concentrate on finding food.
the information contained in many new translations is essentially priceless and if you are a serious practitioner no price or obstacle will stop you from obtaining the tools of your trade, whatever that might be.
most efficient astrologers get by on little translations, to be involved scholastically in Astrology seems to be extremely expensive, and frustrating, as with new technology you have to endlessly upgrade your inventory only to have your latest purchase outdated by the next release.
i still appreciate the efforts of those that do

Estebon, I really don't think you're implying that only wealthy Americans and Europeans practise astrology - or are you?

Re Masha'allah, I should point out the AFA has this month published six books of Masha'allah, translated by James Herschel Holden. In a single volume, the books are:

The Book of Reception in Horary Questions
The Book of Nativities
The Book on the Revolution of Years
The Book on the Significations of Planets in Nativities
The Epistle on Conjunctions
The Book of Thoughts & Interpretations

The title of the collection is Six Astrological Treatises. Retail price for the volume, with all of these books in it, is $24.95. It's available from me, from Amazon, from the AFA as well as from any good specialist bookstore. So far as international customers go, I ship world-wide, one way or another.

If this new volume has the same fate as many other AFA titles, we may expect it to be in print for several decades, at least. It is a fine translation. Other recent translations from Mr. Holden include Rhetorius (Astrological Compendium), and Five Medieval Astrologers (among them, Albumasar, Pseudo-Ptolemy, Hermes Trismegistus, Bethen and Almansor). I look forward to many more translations by Mr. Holden.

In addition, Rob Hand's translation of Masha'allah's On Reception is also available, though you have to get it from me, or the AFA, or someone who deals with AFA directly, as distribution is more limited. It's $18.95.

Dave

I know you do, Dave. It was from you wot I bought Sahl, Rhetorius, ibn Ezra, and several others.

I'm absolutely delighted to hear about the Masha'allah. But as I'm buying a computer this month (can we say irony?), it's going to have to wait a couple months.

Thanks for the heads up, though. It's wonderful news

Olivia wrote:Estebon, I really don't think you're implying that only wealthy Americans and Europeans practise astrology - or are you?

Actually, retired housewives are frequently the guilty parties.

Dave

U$ 180,00 is actually more than half my monthly salary. And I can say that for brazilian standards and considering where I live, it's not that bad.

Still, I managed to raise money to buy Ben Dykes Works of Sahl and Mashala, but after strugling for to long with paypal, I gave up. Since I had to refrain from a lot of weekend pizzas with my friends to raise that sum, I decided to buy Deb's Houses, Temples of the Sky, Al-Birunis introduction and a Dorotheus book...

But I certainly hope to manage one day to get my hands on that book, since it has the treatise On Receptions alongside precious information. Unlikely if there is no new edition, though.

I may be slightly off-topic here but after Dave expressed his fears that the Dykes translation of Bonatti might become unavailable, something sprang into my mind. Namely, that a much greater threat is the eventual perdition of Greek, Arabic, Hebrew, Latin and other manuscripts that no one has ever really examined.

If I want to read the Book on Receptions by M?sh??all?h, I can choose from three different English translations or from four printed Latin editions (of which, momentarily, at least two can be downloaded for free). But does anyone know that M?sh??all?h wrote at least three other works on horary that are preserved as fragments in unpublished Arabic and Greek manuscripts? Or are we aware of the fact that the works of Theophilus of Edessa, the one who introduced astrology in the ?Abb?sid court and made M?sh??all?h acquinted with Rhetorius, which are magisterial treatments of general astrological questions, early interrogational astrology, Persian-style universal astrology and military questions, are still lurking in manuscripts?

If I could make a wish-list, I would certainly include a lot of treatments, which are written in a language known by me but unavailable, or which are written in a language that I cannot understand. I would be interested in the overall picture that can be drawn about Rhetorius in the light of his epitomae and the testimonies on his work, the books on solar revolutions by M?sh??all?h and al-Kha??b, the horary of al-Khayy??, the genethlialogy of Sahl ibn Bishr and Ab? Ma?shar, the compendia of al-Qa?r?n? and a?-?aymar? which are said to cover each branch, the various treatises of al-Kind?, not to speak about such unknown but influential authors like as-Sijz? or Ibn Hibint?. I would like to read those huge Byzantine collections which were composed of quotations from ancient Greek authors and Arabic professionals, even if there are some forgeries among them like the "Palchus" and "Achmates" compendia made by Eleutherius Zebelenus. I would enjoy reading Latin treatises like the ones made by Roger of Hereford, Cecco d'Ascoli and many others, not to speak about the scattered notes of hundreds of practicing astrologers.

But I will stop here. Literally, hundreds of astrological work of various importance are still kept in the vaults of libraries, waiting for rediscovery. Some of them (thanks God!) are cataloged but by no means all. The academical world does not pay much attention to them, only if a study of astrology crosses the researchers' purposes. Some texts are seldom published because they bear some importance in the view of scholars; that is why the majority of extant works from the Hellenistic era or some Arabic books has been published. This abundance, however, may be fragile: if a scholar like David Pingree deceases, there might be nobody to pick up his work. You know, the 30-year-old Rhetorius project is about to be finished this year but the numerous editions and articles that he promised will surely never appear.

So, is it enough to digest the printed material or to live on the scraps scholars occasionally throw in front of the hungry astrological community? Hardly, I claim. Just an example: the origin of horary astrology is shrouded because relevant texts are still hidden from the astrological community. In other words, we use something that we do not really know. Or another: is it satisfactory from a professional point of view that we currently possess only one throughout explanation on a very important predictive tool, the solar revolution, namely, the work of Ab? Ma?shar? Damn, even this cannot be said, as 4 of the total 9 books are preserved only in unpublished Arabic version but are non-extant in the Greek or its consequent Latin translation, so I wish you good luck for using it. To sum up, I dare to say that all we read, think, comment, cling and dispute about is only the peak of an iceberg.

This is what I call a problem. (Which certainly does not mean I would like to diminish the importance of the other factors raised.) Of course, individuals cannot do much against it. But a better, planned cooperation within the concerned astrological community surely could.

Apologies for being off-the-track.

steven wrote:I detest these cheap paperback editions.

I consider Dr. Dykes one of the few reliable astrology translators.
At least in Italy, in fact a proper academical background is always appreciated while nobody would take into any consideration self education.

When someone has not a proper education, it is common saying "University has no value", "I studied alone"....This is something that it is not appreciated here.

And astrology world is full of "translators" with no curriculum to show, so someone like Dr. Dykes is very appreciated.

Still I really hate hard cover editions. People are scared to touch these kind of books, you cannot underline them or take with you in the bus while you are going to work. Instead of thinking of the content you always think how much you paid.

Gijada, Mr Holden has a masters degree. Since he is an American, that means he spent a minimum of 6, probably 7 years at university to obtain it.

I don't consider that 'lack of education'.

Olivia wrote:Gijada, Mr Holden has a masters degree. Since he is an American, that means he spent a minimum of 6, probably 7 years at university to obtain it.

I don't consider that 'lack of education'.

Sorry, I was not talking about Mr. Holden or American universities. Myself I appreciated a lot Holden works.

I was talking more in general.

Myself I translated a little chapter from Albumasar or other texts but I never ask to people to be called an expert. I was always honest about the fact I'm not an expert.

Unfortunately now traditional astrology is fashion - not in Italy and as Osthanes told, there are a lot of texts waiting to be translated, so there are people who try to earn from this.

I see you better than you, because here there is not such a thing, Cardano or Argoli translation are made inside University, there is no market for them, you can pay 15 euro for them....this is I paid for Argoli book about directions.


I'm sorry for misunderstanding,
margherita

Osthanes wrote:Literally, hundreds of astrological work of various importance are still kept in the vaults of libraries, waiting for rediscovery. Some of them (thanks God!) are cataloged but by no means all. The academical world does not pay much attention to them, only if a study of astrology crosses the researchers' purposes.

I agree whole-heartedly with your concern (and would emphatically add Sanskrit to your list of languages). I would like to add my perspective as a professional academic: some of us would love to do this sort of work, but it is constantly getting more difficult to find funding for it. It is not fashionable, and the academic world is ruled by fads and fashions in a way most non-academics would scarcely believe. Studying old texts simply to find out what the authors thought is hardly done anymore -- you have to analyse power structures or deconstruct gender roles for your work to be considered worthwhile. Speaking for myself, I would be happy to turn out astrological translations for the rest of my life, as long as my bills were being paid!