It's also impressive that some people reduce mundane astrology to a single transit of Pluto...

O thank you, thank you for pointing that out...and it remains ridiculous(NO PERSONAL OFFENSE intended - my comment is aimed PURELY at this nonsense "modern" way of practicing mundane astrology) even when we add Saturn, Uranus&co into the bargain.

It is highly interesting that the WW III didn't break out in the 90's, when we had Saturn in Aquarius squaring the almighty Pluto in Scorpio(purported domicile!), isn't it? And wars are always there-currently about 30 of them around the world,and that's still LESS then few years ago, when there were about 50 of them - what do we do with this fact? I'm afraid Pluto isn't very consistent in it's role of a warmonger, is he? The alignment of Pluto with Saturn ISN'T always there, or Pluto's hanging on the nodes, or whatever...mass exterminations, slaughter, wars were there even before Pluto was discovered; to point out that he was still "there" and kicking before the discovery is to neglect the basic premise of the modern astrology's view of things - that the newly discovered planet begins to "act" only after it had been discovered. Or has another rationale sprung up in the meantime, that I'm unaware of?

What I'm trying to say is - mundane astrology is way too complex to be successfully reduced to the influence of 2 or 3 planets in transit ; there's no better way of proving this than pointing out the failure of modern astrology to predict the WW II, or WW I( Pluto was still "in the dark" at the time.)

Goran

mass exterminations, slaughter, wars were there even before Pluto was discovered; to point out that he was still "there" and kicking before the discovery is to neglect the basic premise of the modern astrology's view of things - that the newly discovered planet begins to "act" only after it had been discovered.

Oh my dear God, Goran, where did you get that from??? I mean, about the basic premise of modern astroloy's view of things... Quote? I mean who could be so unintelligent to utter such nonsense? Pluto has been there all the time and has been shaping our destinies right from the start, in the same way as other planets. Apart from this, I sense lots of suppressed martian energy and frustration in some of the later posts - and no personal offense is meant by this, of course.. ))) Please folks don't be offensive and rude, there's no point in it, and it doesn't contribute to piece on earth, nor to the progress of our science.

There's just one more thing I want to say: as a teacher of (mainly traditional) astrology, which has been my sole profession for the last 15 years, with an extensive course in mundane astrology among other courses I've been offering to students, I'd be the last person on earth to try to reduce mundane astrology to a single transit of Pluto. I really regret that anyone should have received such an impression on account of my "innocent" post Ema Kurent, DFAstrolS, QHP, CMA

Hello, Ema

Oh my dear God, Goran, where did you get that from??? I mean, about the basic premise of modern astroloy's view of things... Quote?

Well, I'm not able nor willing to quote something(nonsense, in another words) what I've found in many astrological books/articles in the past several years; this would take a lot of precious time I'm not prepared losing on such a futile job - I don't have to prove anything to anyone, sorry.

Where did I get this from? Its easy, Ema, but you must have overlooked it; how about the following statement - the rise of Nazis in Germany, mafia in the US Mussolini in Italy(despotic, fascist regimes,crime,oppression), economic crisis of 1929. coincided with the discovery of Pluto? These thing are brought into connection with Pluto - the planet even rules those things, among many others. And I surely haven't made this up; these kinds of statements can be found anywhere you look in the modern astrological literature. Frawley, by the way, has hilariously criticized this view in his "Real Astrology." Is he also making it all up? Is he just being 'malicious'? If not, then somebody(actually, the majority of moderns) must have stated/written thus.

Where do you get "rudeness" from? As I've already said, I criticized SOLELY the wrong and highly simplified view of things that modern mundane astrology is offering, that's all.
I'm sure you're well aware of the manifold ancient techniques used in mundane analysis - it takes a lot of time and effort to work that way. That is presumably the reason why moderns stick only with Pluto and perhaps, Uranus and Saturn in transits - it is much quicker and easier that way.

Further, I would like to hear your opinion on the aforementioned Saturn/Pluto square in the 90's, as well as on the Pluto ingress into Libra in 1971 - the second example being connected with a cardinal sign; why didn't WW III begin then?
I find such discussions highly interesting, they help to put things into proper perspective
As for the allegedly suppressed Martian energy you're feeling...it might as well be your own, don't you think?

Greetings,
Goran

Yes Goran, there have been coincidences, true, not just with the discovery of Pluto but with the discovery of Uranus and Neptune too. Lots of interesting stuff on this subject in Dennis Elwell's Cosmic Loom, by the way. My students learn all about that in the Beginners Course. (If John Frawley is making fun of these facts that's his problem. I happen to be quite critical of some of his views, btw.) But that doesn't mean that those planets weren't there (and weren't "active") before, and I'm glad you realize that

PFN wrote:Normally, if I find a post full of ridiculous BS (sorry for that) I just pass it by. Anyway, this time I think things are really getting low.

Even if WWIII happens in november 2010, her other predictions are so lame that it is disrespectful to serious astrology students (or any serious form of divination, for that matter). More than that, shows the lack of spiritual connection that the person who made them up had, besides a lack of morals (and lots of imagination).

It's also impressive that some people reduce mundane astrology to a single transit of Pluto...

I think that it's time to improve the quality of information posted, and that's up to the users best discretion, since, at leas for me, it's becoming unbearable the amount of ridiculousness that's been posted lately.

Hey, there, PFN, you're not mad, are you!?

But, seriously, Ema's reasoning is perfectly all right - she has heard of a blind prophet and is curious to hear as to what Mundane Astrologers would have to say about her story and words or, in better words- if any of the dates are recognisable to Mundane astrologers. I don't think this qualiffies as "non-serious approach".No one is suggetsing that the predictions of this blind woman are correct.

I am probably the last person who is interested in such things and I don't find prophets nearly as attractive as many people do, but Ema's idea of examining if some or any of these "predictions" can get a confirmation or analogy in Mundane astrological predictions seems like a perfectly normal impulse of an Astrologer. The woman whose "work" she mentioned was poorly educated and it would be silly to expect fancy words and explanations from her; the purpose of this topic was not to trigger a discussion on whether blind prophets are better than Astrologers and- there is no need to take her words as disrespectful or offensive for an Astrologer- they are mentioned exactly because all of us here rely upon predictions of Mundane Astrologers in the first place.
No one is stating anything here- the whole topic is just a question or, at least, that is how I see it.

And, as for me- I would have generally enjoyed reading your discussions without participating in it as I am not a Mundane Astrologer but, here, considering the fact that most of the informations about this woman as well as her predictions are not translated into English( or are poorly translated and mainly incomprehensible) , I only jumped in as a translator hoping that having more informations about this whole story might be of some use to those who find the topic interesting.
It was no one's intention to turn a serious Astrological forum into a cheap discussion or to try to substitute valuable astrological predictions with words of a prophet. Starting with Ema, all of the participants are serious and curious Astrologers, after all!

I believe aglaya's post of the Bulgarian psychic's predictions was intended for informational purposes only (regarding the activities of the late Bulgarian psychic) and was not intended as any kind of example of veridical divination, much less of astrological predictive techniques.

Yes, that was my only intention!

Ema wrote:Hi PFN, and it's also impressive how low some people can get Or did you completely misunderstand my post? Thanks Aglaya and dr Farr for your information and additional insight:) Again, I invite serious students of mundane astrology to read that article of Matt Carnicelli, investigating the Saturn/Pluto square - situation in Iran is getting increasingly worrying.

I'm criticizing it yes. It's not supressed martian energy as you mentioned, it is a released one.

Anyway, I'm not here to criticize you, but your position. I know well you have nothing to prove as you already have (through an impressive and well written article about the significance of the 3rd house, published on this very site).

Still, I think that bringing the predictions of a ridiculous clarvoyiant to support the possibility of war that the only indication of is a transit of a less important body, that can not even been seen through naked eye, is irresponsible, no matter how much teory on Pluto there is. Mundane astrology is complex and deserves more reserach, and more resposability when publishing any theory and specially, a prediction (even speculation on it).

Also, my previous post is aimed to other users as well, that have, in my opinion, been downgrading the forum's level by publishing whatever comes to mind without close scrutiny first.

Hi Aglaya, I'm very impressed by your last post. Have nothing to add. Thank you. Hvala

Still, I think that bringing the predictions of a ridiculous clarvoyiant to support the possibility of war that the only indication of is a transit of a less important body, that can not even been seen through naked eye, is irresponsible, no matter how much teory on Pluto there is.

Hi PFN, I'm concerned about your choice of words here. I did not say that the said transit of Pluto is "the only indication of war", not even that it is an indication of war. Please read my post again. You have openly criticised me (or my position as you call it) by saying that "some people reduce mundane astrology to a single transit of Pluto". Again, I do not, and seriously I don't think that my post suggests that. As for "a less important body", opinions vary. In my experience, not only in mundane but in personal sphere of astrology, Pluto is an extremely important body.

Ema wrote:

I did not say that the said transit of Pluto is "the only indication of war", not even that it is an indication of war

but previously, in her opening post :

Now many of you probably know that WW I started when Pluto entered Cancer and WW II when it entered Leo. So, Pluto is undoubtedly the major force behind wars

so how should we read this?

Greetings,
Goran

You're welcome, Ema.
Being familiar with your astrological experience and knowledge that by all means exceeds mine, I would have not expected a non-serious question from you in the first place. Also, though I already mentioned it- to me, it makes sense that you would like to hear as to what Mundane Astrologers would have to say about all this.
But I do understand PFN's reaction because the magazines, TV-shows, newspapers....often make no clear distinction between psychics and Astrologers, prophets and people who practice Astrology, finally, Natal chart delineations and strange marks on eggs, tree bark or frozen windows that "undeniably depict SOMETHING and, by all means predict SOMETHING"! so, maybe he was just scared that mentioning such people and things can degrade the quality of the site but, again- I see it as an invitation to a genuine discussion.

I do need to add something that I skipped to mention in my last post- this woman is not just "yet another prophet"- whether she was or was not capable of predicting events is not up to me to decide (and I don't even have an opinion here) but it is worth mentioning that, after Tarabic brothers who lived in 19. century, she is the most famous prophet that has ever lived in Eastern Europe and her "predictions" have been published numerous times- her clients were presidents, prime ministers (and most of the times it wasn't even a secret), writers, royalties and so on. I am only mentioning this because I hope that it might help the members of the forum who live on other continents to understand that publicity that followed (and that still follows) predictions of this woman was enormous and, normally, Astrologers are occasionally interested in examining the possibility of any of them being true from the standpoint of their own virtue. We can choose not to believe them but we meet with their words very often- she used to be a prophet for almost 70 years.That is all!
I hope this will evolve into a nice discussion!

regards, everyone!

Ema wrote:

Yes Goran, there have been coincidences, true, not just with the discovery of Pluto but with the discovery of Uranus and Neptune too

- meaning...? How can this be justification for the rulerships that were assigned to them? And within the same context, how does Quaoar fit in here - it has been discovered; there are many astrological articles on its symbolism and meaning; yet, he is not mentioned here - this shows total lack of meaningful, consistent system/structure; and meaningful, consistent structure is inherent in traditional astrology.
Moreover, you say that you're practicing traditional astrology, but on the other hand you're using transsaturnians, which are not visible with the naked eye from the earth - this means you're going against the basic precepts of the tradition.

My favorite example - the first nuclear chain reaction controlled by man: Chicago, 2.12.1942 15:25 CST
How does Pluto show its influence in this chart, its natural rulership over nuclear energy?
Or, this one is even better - the first nuclear explosion: 16.7. 1945., 5:30(Mountain War Time) Alamogordo, New Mexico.

Greetings,
Goran