Lakewind - I also think it's helpful to look at physical descriptions of planets involved. If L7 fits someone you loved in the past/now, that would be further indication of previous/current issues showing up in the horary vs. "ever after."

Saturn in Virgo occidental, peregrine, north in latitude. I know this one well, it's my natal 7th ruler...

Lilly:
Saturn when ill (I would say so because it is peregrine/retro and in aversion to the ASC?): he is envious, covetous, jealous and mistrustful, timorous, sordid, outwardly concealing one's real emotions by pretence, sluggish, suspicious, stubborn, a condemner of women, a close liar, malicious, murmuring, never contented, ever repining. Generally the body is cold and dry, of a middle stature; the complexion pale, dark-complexioned or muddy, his eyes small and dark, looking downward; a broad forehead, black or lackluster or thin hair, and it hard or rugged; great ears, hanging; lowering eye-brows, thick lips and nose, a rare or thin beard, a lumpish, unpleasant countenance, either holding his head forward or stooping; his shoulders broad and large, and many times crooked; his belly somewhat short and lank; his thighs spare, lean and not long; his knees and feet indecent, many times shovelling or hitting one against another. If occidental, the man is more black and lean, and fewer hairs; and again, If the latitude be North, hairy and much flesh.

Virgo - average height, the build is slender with straight, angular features. The lips are thin and the forehead may be high, with the eyes small and piercing. The hair is typically dark. Movement is light and quick, the voice is small becoming high pitched (or shrill) when raised. The Virgo style is neat, discreet, simple, conservative and under-stated.

Well, what a collection of answers That description of Saturn is a killer! I can't speak for anyone else, but I sure wouldn't find him too attractive!! I understand and appreciate many of the cautions about this chart, yet I do wonder at the one-sidedness of how we interpret things. For instance, why are we so quick to go to the negative when Neptune is there? Neptune has a whole 'nother side involving the highest idealism and selfless love and romanticism.Just once I would like to see that emphasized by an astrologer. And Paul, I have been uninterested in marriage all my life, and remain so. All I'm looking for is a good person with some ideals, some selflessness, to be close to, to be on his "A" list, to have faith in as an ethical and loving person-but I expect him to have his own life and his own home to go to, just as I have mine. THAT's why I didn't say marriage. I was concerned the moon might represent him, not me.The moon in this chart is at the exact degree of his natal sun,btw. I'm a little uncomfortable with astrologers telling querents what they're "really" asking, as it seems a little less than respectful.
I upfronted the last relationship because I thought Saturn retro might indicate him changing his mind, and the opposition to Uranus might mean divorce for him, not me. But to be objective, it might also show my poor chances of making such a relationship in general, and my receptions, or lack of, might indicate that underneath my longing, I still might be resistant to emotional intimacy as I have been most of my life. But, anyway, I have learned a lot from everyone's comments, so thanks to all. Oh yes, Tanit, I have my natal Sun in Cancer in the 11th house, and a younger guy sounds fine to me. (smiling). Lakewind

That description of Saturn is a killer! I can't speak for anyone else, but I sure wouldn't find him too attractive!!

LOL! That Virgo Saturn actually fits my ex boyfriend (the one I mentioned that wanted to marry me) to a T, right down to the shortness, dark features, big ears, thin lips and lack of proper facial hair. Mine is stationary (the second station before direct movement), and Lilly says that adds weight and he was a little chubby. He WASN'T very attractive! Not my greatest love either...

Oh yes, Tanit, I have my natal Sun in Cancer in the 11th house, and a younger guy sounds fine to me. (smiling).

It's a nice thought, but I'm not so sure, at least in my chart! Cheers to us 11th house Sun women.

Lakewind wrote:Well, what a collection of answers That description of Saturn is a killer! I can't speak for anyone else, but I sure wouldn't find him too attractive!! I understand and appreciate many of the cautions about this chart, yet I do wonder at the one-sidedness of how we interpret things. For instance, why are we so quick to go to the negative when Neptune is there? Neptune has a whole 'nother side involving the highest idealism and selfless love and romanticism.Just once I would like to see that emphasized by an astrologer. ). Lakewind

Lakewind, I can speak from the experience of someone with a very strong natal Neptune. It is conjunct my MC, a dispositor of my Venus in Pisces (talk about romanticism and selfless love) and is sending aspects to about every planet in my natal chart, and a tight sextile to the Asc. My teacher considered it a malific, and I agree with him that ordinarily it means confusion, fantasy and the connection to the other realms (usually of escapist nature). While it also points to a highly devotional nature and a possible connection to the higher Planes, in my very personal experience, it always comes with an element of detachment from the physical reality and self-deception or illusion. It has painful quality to it, and definitely brings a lot of disappointment. My teacher's point was that an ordinary person cannot handle the energy of Neptune very well, I suppose it can bring a lot higher manifestations to a more spiritually advanced person. In traditional horary, outers are not considered much, but I think they can indicate some psychological forces present. In your chart for e.g. I did not even venture to consider Saturn much b/c you were asking a general question, and the chart did not indicate any development in that regard. However, if you had a specific person in mind, than Saturn would represent him. Since you did not ask the question about the specific person, I would not judge it to represent a "divorce" for your friend based on the applying aspect to L7. Also, about the radicality of the chart, I think you can read the chart no matter what and it gives some indications of what is going on, but the lack of radicaltiy means something, like the chart does not bear the pertinent info, or a deep (full) reflection of the question asked. (BTW, the Frawley's authority is questionable, imo, it seems like he just simply "invents" his own rules to make himself stand out, but these rules seem to be unsupported by practical experience, tradition or any data).

What a very interesting chart you must have. Algol,god help us, is on my MC, and neptune rules several intercepted houses. You can imagine I have had my share of suffering. However, i will die before giving up my ideals because what claim to value does human life have without them? I still find it odd that no one has considered the closeness of the moon to the descendent as an aspect,or the moon as co-significator of the 7th. They describe what attracts me to men so clearly. It's goodness. Someone who is kind and idealistic. I'm not talking wimp-I require strong ego, strong sex drive, but they gotta be good, too!! Yeah, yeah, yeah, Neptune strikes again.

Lakewind wrote: I still find it odd that no one has considered the closeness of the moon to the descendent as an aspect,or the moon as co-significator of the 7th.

Actually, i have:

aglaya wrote:Also, it [the moon] is actually conjunct the 7th cusp- both planets are.....

...the Moon is also a female planet and possibly a wife which brings me back to my initial assumption that your hopes were maybe still tied to a specific person.

A planet on the cusp of the 7th was, to me, a possible indication of a woman in your partner's life. That said- we have no partner because it is a question regarding your love life in general. Buit then again- we have a warning against judgement in the chart as well. So, if, by any chance, the underlying question included a specific person, we could be talking about a married man (and there is one in the game), in which case, as I already said, I would strongly advise you to to take the whole chart very carefully because the chances of this chart not being a very reliable source of the informations about your love future in general are very high. There has to be a reason for this late Ascendant.
The Moon on DC is not only someone (potentially) attached to a specific male person but also your direct opponent. The Moon rules wives, mothers, pregnant women etc.

They describe what attracts me to men so clearly.

I believe that only your natal chart can give you a good insight into your general attitude when it comes to men and relationships with them. I've seen relationship Horary charts with the 7th cusp in horrible shape and yet the the shape of the 7th in the Natal chart of some of these Querents wasn't nearly as bad. The 7th in those Horary charts was descriptive of an episode.

For instance, why are we so quick to go to the negative when Neptune is there? Neptune has a whole 'nother side involving the highest idealism and selfless love and romanticism.Just once I would like to see that emphasized by an astrologer.

I agree with elumen here. I've always approached outer planets as non-benefics. I'm trying to avoid the word malefics but generally speaking- yes, that's how I see them.

And, I don't really think that modern literature lacks the romantised presentations of Neptune a bit. "Positive idealism, unconditional love, carmic ties, drunk with love, soulmates..." those are all very common descriptions of the influence of Neptune. Only I don't think i completely agree with everything that has been said about this planet when it comes to what are supposedly its positive sides.
Some times when I read the books of certain modern authors very ardent in their belief that nothing but modern approach is acceptable and when i see the lists of the things that have suddenly been put under the rulership of Neptune I often start wondering if the time for Venus to completely retire from astrology has arrived! It seems as though all beautiful things in the world now belong to Neptune- music, dancing, wines, poetry, philosophy, cinematography...even novels according to some.I would never completely dismiss these planets but I would not say that neptune rules wines. Whilst Venus rules a nice glass of red wine - in my opionion, Neptune is a sign of warning:"Beware, this one might never stop drinking (wine)!" .


You will find many texts describing the nature and potential influence of the outer planets in Mundane and Natal astrology but, though many of them could (at least technically) be applied to Horary (not the rulerships, 'tho), for the sake of brevity, I will jump right onto horary charts . Most modern authors who include the symbolics of outer planets in their Horary readings will suggest that their heaviness actually represents a burden of some kind, a blockage and, more often then not, a form of destruction. At least when we find them conjunct a relevant angle or planet (because, when that is not the case, most astrologers on't really pay much attention to them). Many astrologers believe that the influence of Uranus inside the 1st is similar to the one described by the traditional authors in regards to the presence of Saturn in the 1st i.e. a strong negative influence, the destruction of the mtater etc. On the 7th cusp, it also talks about destructive feelings or simply turbulence, shocking news, separation etc.
Pluto does not bode well on the Ascendant either and it often denotes some extremely hard feelings and disappointment . Pluto on the Ascendant can be saying that the Querent has already spilled a lot of tears over the situation. It's one heavy planet!
As for the Neptune, in her article about Love Horaries, Deb says "Neptune, deceit, confusion and self-deception."
So, yes, I would generally consider heavy outer planets conjunct relevant cusps a bad omen.

But a Moon conjunct Neptune brings even more weight to the chart. That is an even stronger sign of illusion. Here I don't think that have anything to add to what elumen has already said about this planet -I've seen such manifestation of the Moon/Neptune conjunction in SR charts more than once.
But, again, this is just one horary chart. and it is not radical.

Well, Aglaya, I can't honestly say I'm in 100% agreement with you about the "Outies", because I see a lot of transformational potential in them, but I understand and accept your observations to a great extent also. Let me tell you a Pluto story of my own experience. A little while ago I saw Pluto advancing toward my natal 5th. I was very worried about my only child and possibly death/separation of some kind. And indeed, my girl's mental health,and our relationship, did deteriorate. She got so bad last year she wouldn't wash or change her clothes and was fired from her job. When she walked in the door last July on her yearly visit, I knew something was physically wrong at one glance and took her to the doctor immediately( She lives 800 miles from me). Turns out she had a huge brain tumor that had shifted her brain around in it's case. The doctor said it had ossified, was at least ten years old, and after 20 hours of surgery, took her sight. Yes, your vision of Pluto. But guess what? It also brought back my darling girl to herself again, after many years of captivity. We laugh together again, she is loving to her husband and children again. I guess the suffering and loss was necessary and new life has come from it. I guess I see the potential in all the outer planets this way. NOT that I'm saying the suffering was justified or deserved-just the random grief of an indifferent universe. But everything has two sides and change is inevitable. Thanks for your words of astrological wisdom. BTW, Pluto passed over her natal Jupiter at this time.

Hi, Lakewind!

Thank you for sharing your story, I deeply sympathize with what you and your daughter have been through and I'm also glad to hear that you have managed to rebuild your lives and to take such a positive attitude. You are real fighters. And winners!

You're right, of course- believing in the positive side is of all the importance; we can't prevent some things from happening, but we can at least try to win the game.

Well, Aglaya, I can't honestly say I'm in 100% agreement with you about the "Outies",

Well, that is perfectly ok though, i do have to add something- like I said in my previous post, I tended to stick to the most important. But the truth is- no planet is simply bad!
You, of course, know how many details the delineation of a Horary chart includes and how carefully we need to wage the influence and shape of each relevant planet- the dignities, detriments, the quality of the aspect, reception, outer influences... We cannot do that with the outer planets- we have no informations about their minor dignities and exclude them from the list of rulers. That is why the examination of their influence is usually "superficial" or brief whilst the number of the influences promised by these planets is drastically reduced. In the end, we are left with simply their presence in important parts of the chart and that, more often than not, indicates heaviness and negative influence. Some astrologers don't pay much attention to them but those who do, usually take them as confirmation of a generally negative tone or a sign of warning.
That is Horary!

But, generally speaking, traditionally, the malefics are Mars and Saturn and yet, we don't always think of them as of bad guys, do we?! If it were that simple, we'd basically have to tell everyone whose Ascendant is ruled by one of the malefics that (s)he is either a bad person or will have a dangerous and lousy life.Of course, we never do that- the energy of these two planets can often be very welcome and, often, simply descriptive. Likewise, benefics do not bring beneficial influence by default. The most recent example of negative influence brought to life by a benefic that I have seen, is the chart of a man who has had to declare bankruptcy for the second time in 15 years (and, as you can imagine, bankruptcy or near-bankruptcy situations are unfortunately very common these days). The ruler of the 2nd house in the chart of this man is actually Jupiter.

But it is always worth keeping in mind, in my opionion, that, foraslong as we decide to keep the outer planets in the picture, we should stay aware of their heavyness that can potentially bring about a negative influence- thse planets are big, slow moving and "rough" and aren't always the best match for delicate life situations. Same goes for planetary combinations.

That is basically what i was trying to say in my example with a glass of red wine and alcohol abuse.

Again, i wish you and your daughter the best of luck from my heart!

....the receptions in this chart show I may not want a such a close relationship.....I have been uninterested in marriage all my life, and remain so. All I'm looking for is a good person with some ideals, some selflessness, to be close to, to be on his "A" list, to have faith in as an ethical and loving person-but I expect him to have his own life and his own home to go to, just as I have mine. THAT's why I didn't say marriage....underneath my longing, I still might be resistant to emotional intimacy as I have been most of my life.......what attracts me to men so clearly. It's goodness. Someone who is kind and idealistic. I'm not talking wimp-I require strong ego, strong sex drive, but they gotta be good, too!! Yeah, yeah, yeah, Neptune strikes again..

IMHO, it seems to me what you've said above all point to your really wanting an 11th house, detached, friend relationship, but your initial question is of course about the possibility of a close 1-on-1, 7th house, mate-type relationship. Quite a dichotomy! And the chart seems to reflect this too, i.e., The detached Moon in Aquarius, right on the descendant, quickly bumps into dissolving Neptune, as if to say "no, that kind of detachment isn't really possible in a truly committed 7th house, 1-on-1, emotionally intimate relationship." As well, the querent/Sun in independent Aries is exalted and very happy in its house of joy, but it's also in the fall of Saturn/7th house, again showing the conflict. So even though on some level or at some point in time, your 7th house leanings may become stronger or more conscious, right now everything seems to say you really don't want that at this point in time.