13 by Mark MarkC wrote: Plus as a fellow Aquarian I love his 'heresy' of using placidus houses for horary. Handn wrote: On that note, back in 2008, Deb said.... Quote: I'm personally tempted to switch to Placidus for all my charts, because I like the time-based philosophy behind its construction; that too seems as good as any other (Another advantage for me is that most of the time, there's barely any difference from what I get with Regiomontanus anyhow. ) http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3565 Welcome to Heretics Anonymous Regards H. Hello Handn, Thanks for clarifying Derek Appleby's stance further. Regarding Placidus houses for horary I was really being tongue in cheek suggesting it was 'heretical'. In reality, it has as every bit as much historical credibility as Regiomontanus if not more. I was aware of Deb's position on Placidus houses but perhaps others are not so thanks for the link. Another traditional factor which Deb mentions in her book on houses in support of Placidus houses is their direct compatibility with the planetary hour rulers. No other other house system provides this link. Considering planetary hour rulers are traditionally so important in horary this seems a strong argument for the antiquity of the Placidus house system. I find it hard to believe this is just a coincidence. Here is a link to an article on house systems here by Deb: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/houprob4.html Here is a selection: The Placidus system is purely time-based and thus offers perfect harmony with the use of planetary hours, adding credence to the claim that this could have been an original method of house division, based upon the two-hourly 'watches' of ancient astrologers, who numbered the constellations in the order that the stars within them rose to the ascendant during the twelve watches of the 24-hour period. There seems little doubt that the symbolism attached to the interpretative use of the houses has been greatly influenced from their use as 'time-markers', in which the movement of the planets' passage through the heavens, following the diurnal arc, is recognized. Each of the houses represents two planetary hours, the first starting at dawn with the ascendant. The area between the ascendant and the 12th house cusp represents the first two planetary hours, that between the 12th and the 11th the 3rd and 4th hour, and so on. The MC represents the end of the 6th daytime planetary hour, while the descendant corresponds to sunset. The 6th house is made up of the first two nocturnal hours, and so on round to the Ascendant. The division between the two planetary hours in any house is found by dividing the house exactly in two (see diagram above). Not only is the system sympathetic to the use of these astrological hours, but it is also the system that lends itself to the most 'natural' system of Primary Directions endorsed by Ptolemy, and it is for this reason that its advocates claim it as the system he would have preferred. We have to accept an element of speculation here - we have no actual evidence from Ptolemy's work to endorse this view or suggest otherwise. Placidus does, however, remain the most popular quadrant system of house division in use today. It is often said that the reason for this is the ready availability of Raphael's Tables of Houses which refer to the system, but this seems a little unfair as its underlying philosophy is also clearly to be respected. In the link you provided its amusing that Deb mentions Olivia Barclay advocated Regiomontanus in part because she believed it was the system used by Ibn Ezra. According to J.D. North in Horoscopes and History Abraham Ibn Ezra (1089-1164 CE) used the Placidus house System. As I see it the reason Regiomontanus is more popular has nothing to do with its superiority for horary. Its simply that with the rediscovery of Lilly all the initial generation of horary teachers sought to mirror his chosen system. Equally, the pupils of these teachers sought to emulate what was then regarded as the only tried and tested authentic approach from Lilly. Thats clear from what Deb says in the thread you gave the link to. Perhaps, with more texts on horary astrology becoming available from Persian, Arab and Medieval astrology more people will come to appreciate that various house systems have been employed for horary throughout history and that using house systems other than Regiomontanus is far from being deviant for a traditional astrologer. A major reason for the the standard or classical house system of the medieval period (Alcabitius) being replaced by Regiomontanus from the late 15th-17th century was related to the influence of of Johannes Mueller (Regiomontanus 1436-76) as the greatest mathematician and astronomer of his age. Mueller provided greatly improved astronomical tables which seemed to provide more weight to his argument for his proposed house system. Just as Ptolemy's astronomical achievement in creating 'handy tables' led to him to be later described as 'divine Ptolemy', Regiomontanus provided much improved astronomical tables that made his new house system seem more rational and authorative to his contemporaries. With the benefit of hindsight though I think students of traditional astrology today are entitled to seriously question whether a highly complex space based house system like Regiomontanus is really more logical or efficacious in traditional astrological terms over an ecliptic or time based quadrant house system. To throw the cat amongst the pigeons there are even those practising horary today who use a whole sign rather than a quadrant house system. I personally, feel quadrant house cusps are best at picking up the accidental strength or weakness of planets in a local geocentric way but it just goes to show there are a variety of views out there. Here is an interesting article by Maria Mateus comparing three examples of horary charts using the main types of sign division ie ecliptic, time based and space based. http://www2.islandnet.com/~pjamesclark/ ... amined.htm Mark As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:25 pm
14 by handn Thanks for the extra information Mark. I agree there's nothing heretical about it and knew you were joking with that, I was just joining in One of the reasons this was of interest to me is I have recently been thinking about changing to Placidus for my horary studies but somehow the change didn't seem right intuitively. I don't yet have much to base that intuition on or equally to dismiss it but who knows in future. I think when horary resurged those years ago people stuck with Regiomontanus on the basis of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. Since they were newcomers to horary I think that's a decent decision to make. The living experts in horary now have lots of experience under their belt so things are at a different stage. Since computers make the lack of tables problem disappear I'm not surprised there are debates being had all through astrology. Something that held experiments back has been removed. With the unearthing and translating of old texts all in all it's quite an interesting period for astrology ... the confluence of factors. I like Derek Appleby's book and agree the charts can be difficult to read. On the other hand, they have that hand-drawn charm that computer versions lack. I also like the way in the text the author is willing to discuss some of his wrong judgements and to look for reasons why he went wrong. That's admirable in a book. He didn't write as an expert. Regards H. Quote Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:44 pm
15 by Mark One of the reasons this was of interest to me is I have recently been thinking about changing to Placidus for my horary studies but somehow the change didn't seem right intuitively. I don't yet have much to base that intuition on or equally to dismiss it but who knows in future. Following your instincts is very important with house systems as with everything else in astrology. I hope I didn't come over a rapid evangelical for Placidus. As a divinatory art I feel its key that that horary astrologer has faith in their chosen technique whatever it is. I think that is more important than the chosen house system itself. Thus I am happy to examine other people's horary charts with the house system they are comfortable with. That kind of subjective view will probably irritate empiricists but you cant please everyone. Over the years I have been through a variety of phases inspired by different visions of astrology. Studying with the Faculty of Astrological Studies in London in the early 1990's I learned the Equal house system. Then some other astrologers introduced Placidus to me and I took that up. I did experiment with Topocentric for a while as a more 'scientific' system although its house cusps are almost identical to Placidus. Then when I got into traditional astrology and learned horary with Deborah Houlding about 5 years ago I was taught Regiomontanus. Since then I have experimented with Porphyry, Alcabitius and Placidus. Moreover, in regards natal work I have been studying hellenistic techniques and using whole sign houses! So I think I can safely say I have been all around the houses! I have had issues about the extremely large/shrunken houses both Regiomontanus and to a lesser extent Placidus produces at my latitude (55 57N). In that respect Alcabitius and Porphyry produces less extreme differences. Living where I am you cant ignore the issue of the effect of latitude on quadrant house systems. For example, Campanus houses start to collapse at my latitude. During a workshop in Scotland last year Deb Houlding mentioned that she used Lilly's house system living at the same latitude he was born at. However, she conceded that if she lived somewhere like Scotland she might have to give the issue second thought. Having said that we have experienced professional horary practitoners on Skyscript (for example Andrew Bevan in Oslo, Norway 59, 57N) who still seem very comfortable using Regiomontanus. I think when horary resurged those years ago people stuck with Regiomontanus on the basis of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. Since they were newcomers to horary I think that's a decent decision to make. The living experts in horary now have lots of experience under their belt so things are at a different stage. Yes I agree. Not only did Regiomontanus seem tried and tested but it was used by the greatest horary astrologer known to the English speaking world! I have to state I never experienced Regiomontanus failing me. Equally, neither has Placidus. Its just I need a house system I feel philosophically attuned too. Regiomontanus works on a principle I cant personally embrace. I like Derek Appleby's book and agree the charts can be difficult to read. On the other hand, they have that hand-drawn charm that computer versions lack. I also like the way in the text the author is willing to discuss some of his wrong judgements and to look for reasons why he went wrong. That's admirable in a book. He didn't write as an expert. I think being able to experiement and take a risk is fundamental. In my experience the best astrology teachers seek to constantly question their understanding whether expert or not. Mark As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:29 pm
16 by Melina MarkC wrote: I think being able to experiement and take a risk is fundamental. In my experience the best astrology teachers seek to constantly question their understanding whether expert or not. Mark I believe that too. There are several house systems, and each has its own legitimacy, but the ultimate argument for a house system is, I believe, what G. Cornelius calls the "image of birth". Discussing issues of rectification, he claims that the reason why charts with wrong time of birth seem to work for interpretation and also for prediction is that instead of looking for the technically perfect chart, we should stick to the chart that allows us to read it, that works for us. I think the same could be applied to horary. Personally, I use Topocentric for my natal and predictive readings, but for Horary I use Regiomontanus. Maybe it?s because I am practically self taught in the art of Horary, and I started almost from scratch with Lilly. I think because there were so many things to take into account with the reading of the chart, I took for granted that the house system to work with should be Regio. When I got in touch with Appleby?s book, I also started thinking abouth the houses issue. As I had already found my "image of birth" for Horary, I?ve refrained from changing it, although when my horary predictions don?t work, I change the houses to Placidus to see if they work better, just as an excercise. It?s very nice reading you. M. www.starryherald.com.ar Quote Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:48 pm